What brand and grade of gas are you using? 87 or higher? - Page 3 - Unofficial Honda FIT Forums

Go Back  Unofficial Honda FIT Forums > The Honda Fit and Jazz Forums > 3rd Generation (2015+)
Reload this Page >

What brand and grade of gas are you using? 87 or higher?

3rd Generation (2015+) Say hello to the newest member of the Fit family. 3rd Generation specific talk and questions here.

What brand and grade of gas are you using? 87 or higher?

  #41  
Old 09-23-2014, 02:21 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by n9cv View Post
You guys need to investigate what "Top Tier" really is. It is a marketing thing. To advertise that you are "Top Tier" you must only agree that the fuel you sell is AT LEAST 8% ethanol. After that you stipulate that your fuel will exceed the EPA minimum standard for cleanliness (clean burning) which ethanol does.

The primary additive in "Top Tier" gasoline is ethanol. Since ethanol is already required in EPA-non attainment areas, there nothing else you need to do to qualify except sell ethanol diluted fuel in all marketing areas.
No this is incorrect. There is more to Top Tier than this. Without a source your claims are not at all convincing.


Originally Posted by chrisjones View Post
Can you suggest any good sources for this information? I have actually read a lot on this, and just went looking for validation of your post, and I've never seen anything that indicates that a fuel can qualify as Top Tier from ethanol content alone. The assertions seem to be that higher detergent levels are necessary. It could be that ethanol qualifies as a detergent, but I didn't find any sources that suggest this. This leaves me for the moment having to see your post as seeming to be at odds with the other information I'm seeing. As I'm no expert, this could be a misunderstanding on my part.
It's is not incumbent upon you to validate his claims. If he wants to be believed or convincing then he has to provide evidence for his claims. So far, he has not done that. So, we have no reason to take his statements with more than a grain of salt.


Here is more information that supports Honda's recommendations for Top Tier:

See this post: Top Tier is a good thing

See this article (ten years old but still relevent): Larry Webster: Your Car is a Temple, so Put in the Good Stuff - Column - Car and Driver

--- Update to this post ---

And another article: http://blogs.motortrend.com/1403_all...chnologue.html

.
 

Last edited by Fat_man; 09-23-2014 at 06:54 PM. Reason: added source
  #42  
Old 09-23-2014, 02:39 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal, CA
Posts: 1,545
Originally Posted by SR45 View Post
please stop posting garbage GeorgeL
And I will ask others to stop posting advertising hype disguised as information.

The fact is that anyone buying gas in the US is likely buying "Top Tier" fuel without knowing it. Even the cheapest ARCO and Costco gas (which is what I generally buy) is "Top Tier". It would be very difficult to not fuel one's car with "Top Tier" gas fairly consistently.
 
  #43  
Old 09-23-2014, 02:45 PM
Member
5 Year Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Dunedin, Florida
Posts: 1,158
ARCO and Costco are listed as Top Tier providers. See my link upthread.
 
  #44  
Old 09-23-2014, 04:19 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal, CA
Posts: 1,545
My point exactly. Nothing special or expensive about that designation!
 
  #45  
Old 09-23-2014, 06:51 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by GeorgeL View Post
My point exactly. Nothing special or expensive about that designation!
I have no idea where you get your information George... it seems you just say whatever you happen to believe with no reference to any credible source. Sorry but, I don't believe what you say just because you say it, especially when it contradicts what I have read from credible sources.

If a gasoline retailer wants their gas to be designated Top Tier then they have to go through Top Tier's licensing process:

"Top Tier is a performance standard, establishing tests and minimum acceptable results for intake-valve and combustion-chamber deposits, fuel-injector fouling, and intake-valve sticking. It also requires that all fuel grades marketed by the brand meet the standard (not just the premium grade, for example). Additive manufacturers pay for the testing, fuel suppliers pay an annual fee to participate, and compliance testing is conducted by third-party labs."

Source: All Fuels Are Not Created Equal - Technologue - Motor Trend

If one wants to be assured that the gas they buy meets the standards set forth in this process all they have to do is follow Honda's recommendations and buy the Top Tier gas. When it is available, I will always prefer Top Tier gas... why wouldn't I ???

.
 
  #46  
Old 09-23-2014, 07:36 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal, CA
Posts: 1,545
Originally Posted by Fat_man View Post
I have no idea where you get your information George... it seems you just say whatever you happen to believe with no reference to any credible source.
I've been reading some of this information in the same place as you and most everyone else in this thread found your expertise, the first page of Google results for "Top Tier Gasoline". That's where you found that Motor Trend blog.

Oh, and I'm also an engineer and I've actually done fuel testing in the lab and on test engines. I know something of this subject even without reference to Google!

There's nothing special about dropping some amines into gasoline and giving it a fancy name. It's been done ever since cars have run on the stuff. The chemistry is a bit beyond the automotive journalists but they will happily parrot the press releases.

The fact is that most fuel, even cheap stuff from ARCO and Costco, now meets the "top tier" standard and even if you occasionally run some fuel with a lesser amount of detergents it will be remedied as soon as refill with the higher-detergent stuff. Even Chevron and Shell agree, albeit vaguely, according to the blog you cited:

Chevron and Shell both claim that running a few tanks of fuel can remove the deposits left by miles of use of minimum-standard fuels.
 
  #47  
Old 09-23-2014, 08:35 PM
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 112
Originally Posted by GeorgeL View Post
I've been reading some of this information in the same place as you and most everyone else in this thread found your expertise, the first page of Google results for "Top Tier Gasoline". That's where you found that Motor Trend blog.

Oh, and I'm also an engineer and I've actually done fuel testing in the lab and on test engines. I know something of this subject even without reference to Google!
So you say, okay. But, yeah anyway, my reference was the Motor Trend blog... not Google... but, I would love to know what your search terms were because I think I went three pages into to the Google results to find THAT!!!

Originally Posted by GeorgeL View Post
There's nothing special about dropping some amines into gasoline and giving it a fancy name. It's been done ever since cars have run on the stuff.
I think its special but, that's just me... YMMV

Originally Posted by GeorgeL View Post
The chemistry is a bit beyond the automotive journalists but they will happily parrot the press releases.
Are these ppl parroting press releases? It doesn't sound that way to me. It sounds like experts making well-informed and well-reasoned statements that the journalist is reporting to us with direct quotations:

<start text quoted from source referenced below>

Top Tier fuels feature more of these additives than regular gas. In 1995 the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) set a minimum standard for gasoline additives. Since then, refiners and fuel blenders have actually reduced the amount of detergent they put in fuel by about 50 percent. In the long run this cutback has impacted the ability of vehicles to meet emission standards.

According to Bill Studzinski, Fuels Technical Specialist at General Motors, a number of OEMs saw this problem and got together to push for higher levels of detergency. He said Top Tier gasoline is a better fuel for engines, and that it takes the mystery out of what a good fuel is and what an average fuel is.

Chris Martin, a spokesman for Honda said “we’ve supported it [Top Tier gasoline] because we’ve seen a benefit from it for our consumers in the long run.” He also said the average driver doesn’t know about detergent additives, they just look for the cheapest gas available but “Top Tier fuel goes a step beyond that.”

“We don’t require that our vehicle owners use Top Tier gas” Martin said, but it helps “make sure the engines are going to last as long as they could.” This is obviously beneficial, especially since Honda drivers historically keep their cars for a long time.

Responding to questions via e-mail, Marie Valentine, the Senior Principle Engineer, Vehicle Regulation and Certification Engineering, Toyota Technical Center, said the amount of detergents in Top Tier gas is about twice what’s required by the EPA. However, it can vary depending “on the base gasoline and the chemistry of the detergent additive.”
<end quoted text>

source: Which Gas Stations Sell the Best Quality Gasoline? » AutoGuide.com News

Originally Posted by GeorgeL View Post
The fact is that most fuel, even cheap stuff from ARCO and Costco, now meets the "top tier" standard and even if you occasionally run some fuel with a lesser amount of detergents it will be remedied as soon as refill with the higher-detergent stuff. Even Chevron and Shell agree, albeit vaguely, according to the blog you cited:
Well that's very interesting (truly) and maybe even an actual reality. However it doesn't change the fact that the Auto makers did decide to set a higher standard than EPA for fuel performance and it is identified with Top Tier licensing and Honda recommends it for the Fit.

Maybe that means nothing to you but I think it is meaningful and helpful to me as a car owner... who loves his lil' Honda...

Best to you George!


.
 
  #48  
Old 09-24-2014, 02:56 AM
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal, CA
Posts: 1,545
Originally Posted by Fat_man View Post
So you say, okay. But, yeah anyway, my reference was the Motor Trend blog... not Google... but, I would love to know what your search terms were because I think I went three pages into to the Google results to find THAT!!!
I searched on exactly that phrase: "Top Tier Gasoline" (without quotes). The blog was the fourth item listed, right after the Wikipedia article which quotes radio personalities Click and Clack as fuel experts!

Originally Posted by Fat_man View Post
I think its special but, that's just me... YMMV...

...Are these ppl parroting press releases? It doesn't sound that way to me....
They're doing an excellent job of promotion. They've got you convinced that their product is something special even though nothing they said gave a clue that they actually understood what the detergents do or how they do it beyond some vague statements that they help keep engines clean. They don't even say which detergents are used.

Read the press releases on the Top Tier site, then read the articles. Notice how many phrases from the releases found their way into the articles. It's pretty obvious that much of the journalism is cut-and-paste.

There's nothing wrong with Top Tier fuel, and if you fuel up in the US you're likely getting it even if the pump isn't trademarked. Detergents aren't proprietary chemicals and some fuel suppliers just aren't going to pay the fees to use the trademark even though their fuels meets the specification.
 
  #49  
Old 09-24-2014, 03:12 AM
Myxalplyx's Avatar
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Delaware
Posts: 1,842
I have nothing to add.

Just wanted to indicate that I'm enjoying this discussion. Thanks guys!
 
  #50  
Old 09-24-2014, 09:04 AM
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Dunedin, Florida
Posts: 426
Hey GeorgeL, if you are so smart, why haven't you given use any links to some official sites that back you up. Just because you said you are an engineer doesn't me a darn thing to us on this forum. I want facts from a reliable source, not a forum member whom rants that this Tier 1 gas is bogus. I've read a number of sites that say differently, but you have listed absolutely NONE
 
  #51  
Old 09-24-2014, 09:32 AM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Conyers, GA
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by GeorgeL View Post
Top Tier is a marketing gimmick. It just means that the gasoline has detergents in it and all gasolines sold since 1995 have them due to federal requirements. Gas companies like to use fancy terms like "Platformate," "Nitrogen-enriched," "Techron," "EC-1," etc. to describe pretty much the same product. All fuels come from the same suppliers and the various brands trade them freely among themselves. Your Shell gas might have been pumped from a Exxon well, refined at an Arco refinery and hauled in a United Oil tanker.
It is true that all of the gases come from pretty much the same bunch of refineries, and the same truck might deliver fuel to the generic station and then to the Chevron, my understanding is that additional detergents and such are mixed in after delivery and aren't necessarily in the fuel that is on the truck. This would be how the Chevron would claim a higher detergent level than the generic station across the street. It would be a legitimate claim.

Nearly every car manufacturer is recommending these fuels, and I doubt they're doing that because of payola from the Top Tier marketing organization. Unless someone shows me good evidence that this is why they're making that recommendation, I'm going to figure on more apparent reasons, such as that the fuels actually do keep the engine cleaner.
 

Last edited by chrisjones; 09-24-2014 at 09:46 AM.
  #52  
Old 09-24-2014, 11:10 AM
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Coppell,Texas
Posts: 115
Originally Posted by SR45 View Post
Hey GeorgeL, if you are so smart, why haven't you given use any links to some official sites that back you up.
^^^^ This

Originally Posted by SR45 View Post
Just because you said you are an engineer
An engineer in one field does not make that person an expert in all fields.

example: An engineer of geology shouldn't make opinionated statements about Astrophysics because they are not degreed in Astrophysics and probably have very little real knowledge in the subject.

GeorgeL is pulling the "I'm an engineer so I am an expert in all fields card" along with his refusal to publish any links backing up his claims shows that he is just trolling.

Just ignore his posts and move on.
 
  #53  
Old 09-24-2014, 11:31 AM
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Conyers, GA
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by CIOWN View Post
^^^^ This



An engineer in one field does not make that person an expert in all fields.

example: An engineer of geology shouldn't make opinionated statements about Astrophysics because they are not degreed in Astrophysics and probably have very little real knowledge in the subject.

GeorgeL is pulling the "I'm an engineer so I am an expert in all fields card" along with his refusal to publish any links backing up his claims shows that he is just trolling.

Just ignore his posts and move on.
I don't know that I would accuse him of trolling. A troll is typically someone who may or may not actually believe what they are posting, but who is posting something inflammatory for the sole effect of getting a strong reaction out of people. A troll thrives on the outrage and isn't looking to persuade or inform anyone.

I do think George believes what he is saying, intends to persuade or inform people, and doesn't appear to be merely getting kicks from producing outrage.

I think that he has simply failed to provide any independent, reliable, reputable data for the case he is wanting to make. He may or may not be right (I don't believe he is) but he won't establish that he is without some good data to counteract the information some of the others have read and which FatMan has linked. He may not find the quality of those sources to be adequate, but compared to no sources at all, they must be preferred.

His shortcoming here isn't that he is trolling, but that he either does not want to take the time to locate the information to support his case or doesn't want to acknowledge that there is none (if that is true). He would prefer that we accept what he is suggesting on his word alone, but because what he is suggesting is contrary to other sources we've found, and this is becoming a topic of controversy, something more than a person's word is going to be preferred.
 
  #54  
Old 09-24-2014, 12:37 PM
Member
5 Year Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 143
Originally Posted by chrisjones View Post
He may not find the quality of those sources to be adequate, but compared to no sources at all, they must be preferred.
I call BS on this claim. I haven't checked out all the links in this thread, but I note that one of Fat_man's links points to an article that seems to be based entirely on marketing claims recited by people working for Top Tier and its consortium members; auto manufacturers and fuel companies. I don't see how that "must be preferred", since it has no credibility at all; it's merely advertising masquerading as an informative article.

I did some web-searching on the subject a few months back, and I didn't find anything supporting Top Tier's claims that couldn't be traced back to their own spokespersons and those of Top Tier's consortium members. Everything seemed to circle back to the same corporate talking points, from the same sources lacking any credibility.

Fat_man and GeorgeL have made conflicting claims, and simply because Fat_man posted links, that doesn't mean he has supported his claims any better than GeorgeL has supported his. At least GeorgeL hasn't resorted to laughably unreliable sources, nor has he claimed that such nonsense "must be preferred." An independent technical evaluation, from someone in a position of expertise but not related to the Top Tier consortium, would be useful; but I haven't seen Top Tier or its advocates providing any such links.
 

Last edited by Buck Fitty; 09-24-2014 at 01:04 PM.
  #55  
Old 09-24-2014, 02:10 PM
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: SoCal, CA
Posts: 1,545
As an engineer I certainly don't know everything, but vehicle and fuel technology does happen to fall within my narrow sphere of expertise. It is sad that some people's knee-jerk reaction is to distrust engineers, particularly when we're discussing a car built by a company whose fame was built by excellent engineering.

It seems that some people believe that if something is not on the Internet it isn't valid. Unfortunately, most knowledge that is deeper than a Wikipedia article isn't readily available on-line. You might find it on an academic database but these usually require a subscription as well as the background to understand what one is reading.

Deeper information that relates to marketing and competitive issues is usually proprietary and not on-line at all. Companies are loathe to release any specific information because they have found that doing so exposes them to liability in the future. Why release specifics when 99% of customers will be motivated by fancy but ambiguous terms like "Top Tier"? A good example of this is Honda's reluctance to say exactly what their "Eco" button does. If they did, and some characteristic of the button's function caused an accident, then Honda could be found liable. Better to keep the customers dumb and happy.

For basic knowledge of how detergents work in fuels the best sources are still textbooks in petroleum engineering and chemistry. They aren't generally available on the Internet, but may be available in e-book form.

The other question is if this issue is really one that has a "scientific" solution. I'm not debating whether putting detergents in gasoline is desirable. What I am questioning is the reasoning behind the near-religious fervor some of us assign to a couple of lines in their owner's manual. There is no way to scientifically evaluate things like beauty and goodness so any attempt to do so goes back to being an exercise in marketing.

Someone who fuels his vehicle at random stations is probably getting "Top Tier" levels of detergency the majority of the time even if the trademark isn't present. That's the nature of the fuel business.

 
  #56  
Old 09-24-2014, 02:37 PM
Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 80
Originally Posted by JFit123 View Post
Thanks to all. What brand of top tier are you using? I'm not familiar with the brand names.
Costco has Top Tier gasoline and it is usually cheaper than everyone elses.
 
  #57  
Old 09-25-2014, 05:34 PM
Wanderer.'s Avatar
Member
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Hayward, CA
Posts: 4,364
lol this

I love Arco/AMPM. Spicy hot dogs with chili and some jalapenos are good. That's about all I get there though.

My car runs poorly on Arco and Valero. That is my scientific evidence i'd like to submit to Fitfreak.com Engineering Division.
 
  #58  
Old 09-27-2014, 12:22 AM
New Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 6
I use a 50/50 mix of VP Racing's C14 blend and 100 proof Straight Kentucky Bourbon Whiskey. The i-Vtec loves it.


J/K, 87 octane from whatever station looks clean with short lines.
 
  #59  
Old 09-27-2014, 05:01 PM
JFit123's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
Posts: 75
I did a little more digging about top tier gas (detergent added), and Shell seemed to come up a lot as good brand. The post on the drive accord forum cites a study about TT and whether there is more of a difference between the different levels of octanes. It looks like there is only a slight difference to go from 87 to 91 among the TT vendors.

Manual recommends using Top Tier Gas. What do you use? - Page 2 - Drive Accord Honda Forums

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdreibelbis
So a question about Shell - or any Top Tier gasoline retailer: is *all* the gas they sell Top Tier?

Short answer: With regard to Shell gasoline, yes, all grades/octanes are Top Tier rated based on the level of detergent properties per milliliter.

In this regard, the question that always comes up is whether there are more detergents in higher octane Top Tier gasolines. Again, the answer is yes.

To find out how much more and how various fuels differed, last year one of the news services (ABC?) asked/paid Paragon Labs to test several of the TT fuels, including Exxon-Mobil (XOM), Shell (RDS), British Petroleum (BP) and four or five others. Among regular grades of fuel, those three came out on top (which is why I remember them), and they were comparable (approximately 15 milligrams of additives per milliliter). When it came to the higher octanes however, RDS had twice the detergent properties in their 91 octane fuel (31 mg/ml), and roughly 18% more than their next competitor, XOM (31 mg/ml for RDS vs. 26mg/ml for XOM). Shell also has a unique additive, nitrogen, which independent testing has determined more readily combines with carbon atoms during the combustion process. The result is a cleaner burning fuel.

This, of course, begs the question as to whether there are any other reasons to use 91 (or higher) octane fuel. This has been debated here endlessly. However, FWIW, if you are familiar with how Honda's engine control module (ECM) works, you know that within a narrow range (and that's important), the EMU will advance and retard the ignition in response to "pinging" (that rattling sound you hear when an engine is lugged) or the absence of it. In other words, if you consistently use a higher octane fuel, the ECM will respond to the absence of detonation, and advance the timing slightly within the fixed parameters of the EMU. Thus, the engine performs better, and you can get slightly better mileage. Whether that slight improvement and the additional additives are worth the additional cost is, of course, entirely up to you as an educated consumer.
 
  #60  
Old 09-27-2014, 05:12 PM
JFit123's Avatar
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
Posts: 75
Originally Posted by JFit123 View Post
I did a little more digging about top tier gas (detergent added), and Shell seemed to come up a lot as good brand. The post on the drive accord forum cites a study about TT and whether there is more of a difference between the different levels of octanes. It looks like there is only a slight difference to go from 87 to 91 among the TT vendors.

Manual recommends using Top Tier Gas. What do you use? - Page 2 - Drive Accord Honda Forums

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdreibelbis
So a question about Shell - or any Top Tier gasoline retailer: is *all* the gas they sell Top Tier?

Short answer: With regard to Shell gasoline, yes, all grades/octanes are Top Tier rated based on the level of detergent properties per milliliter.

In this regard, the question that always comes up is whether there are more detergents in higher octane Top Tier gasolines. Again, the answer is yes.

To find out how much more and how various fuels differed, last year one of the news services (ABC?) asked/paid Paragon Labs to test several of the TT fuels, including Exxon-Mobil (XOM), Shell (RDS), British Petroleum (BP) and four or five others. Among regular grades of fuel, those three came out on top (which is why I remember them), and they were comparable (approximately 15 milligrams of additives per milliliter). When it came to the higher octanes however, RDS had twice the detergent properties in their 91 octane fuel (31 mg/ml), and roughly 18% more than their next competitor, XOM (31 mg/ml for RDS vs. 26mg/ml for XOM). Shell also has a unique additive, nitrogen, which independent testing has determined more readily combines with carbon atoms during the combustion process. The result is a cleaner burning fuel.

This, of course, begs the question as to whether there are any other reasons to use 91 (or higher) octane fuel. This has been debated here endlessly. However, FWIW, if you are familiar with how Honda's engine control module (ECM) works, you know that within a narrow range (and that's important), the EMU will advance and retard the ignition in response to "pinging" (that rattling sound you hear when an engine is lugged) or the absence of it. In other words, if you consistently use a higher octane fuel, the ECM will respond to the absence of detonation, and advance the timing slightly within the fixed parameters of the EMU. Thus, the engine performs better, and you can get slightly better mileage. Whether that slight improvement and the additional additives are worth the additional cost is, of course, entirely up to you as an educated consumer.
Here's the Paragon link reference:
According to this lab analysis it is clear that premium gasoline contain higher levels of detergents.

Detergents - TEST RESULTS (Source: Paragon Laboratories)
www.wxyz.com/news/region/wayne-county/detergent-in-gas-helps-the-engine-run-cleaner-and-smoother-so-just-how-much-is-in-there-

Regular Unleaded 87 Octane (per 100 mL.)

Exxon 20.0mg
BP 17.2mg
Shell 16.2mg
Marathon 8.2mg
Citgo 6.0mg
Pilot 5.8mg
Speedway 5.2mg

Premium Unleaded 92 or 93 Octane (per 100mL)

Shell 31.0mg
BP 26.4mg
Exxon 21.2mg
Speedway 10.6mg
Mobil 10.6mg
Citgo 9.4mg
Marathon 9.0mg
Pilot 8.8mg
 

Last edited by JFit123; 09-27-2014 at 05:38 PM.

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: What brand and grade of gas are you using? 87 or higher?


Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.