Chris is going to use Wiseco or Mahle pistons and build his engine to handle big boost... I am just wanting experience cooler intake air temperatures during the hot months... Both of you guys influenced me to buy the air/fuel ratio gauge... I keep hearing that water/methanol injection will make more power with just some tweaking of of the A/F ratio and ignition timing.... If not I can get a smaller pulley and longer belt to up the boost a little. I still need to get the Boomslang harness for the AEM F/IC.

 

I thought he said he rebuilt the bottom end but I was not sure what car. You do need to get water injection but the tuning of it might be a issue with out a dyno. I would call Hondata and see if the chip they installed is reflashable by one of their programs and a laptop like I think. Then all you need is a USB cable with the ODBII adapter and the money saved for the Boomslang harness can be used for the pulley.

The water injection will help with those HOT summer days and then you can drive more in the day with no issues. If your ecu is reflashable then you can dial in the real VE maps making more power, then tweak the fuel and timing with better reliability.

 

Yup Wiseco pistons, K1 Rods, ARP hardware. I have two motors. Stock Longblock is still in the car.

Basically everything listed out in my signature is going into the built motor.

BUT I will be playing with a stock block for as long as I can. Hence all the wastegates.. to keep pressure low on both stages.

If you look at the spreadsheet and check out the pressure ratios and compare them to Manifold Pressure (Read: Boost Pressure) you'll see a small ratio on both stages creates a metric fuckton of boost.

For a single turbo at sea level:
PR1.0 = 0psi boost or 14.7psi Absolute
PR1.5 = 7psi boost or 22.05psi Absolute
PR2.0 = 14.7psi boost or 29.4psi Absolute

This is because we consider a PR of 1.0 to be atmospheric pressure. Nothing has been compressed. 1.0 * X = X, and at Sea Level "X" = 14.7psi Absolute pressure

This is not accounting for "Altitude Density" but we'll save that for a different conversation.

For a two stage turbo system, where one feeds into the other, the pressure ratios multiply:

Primary stage turbo @ 1.5PR is putting out 7psi boost at sea level.
Secondary turbo @ 1.5PR now takes that 7psi boost and turns it into ~18psi boost.

Heres how:

1.5PR * 1.5PR = 2.25PR
2.25 * 14.7psi = 33.075psi Absolute
33.075psi Absolute - 14.7psi Atmospheric = 18.375psi Boost or "Manifold Pressure" as I refer to it in the WorkSheet.

So when you look at the midrange of the power band where both turbos are on full song at 2.4PR, they are making a combined ~70psi boost in the manifold.

On their own, a 2.4PR at sea level is only making 20.58psi Boost in the manifold.

2.4 * 14.7 Atmospheric (Sea Level) = 35.28psi Absolute
35.28 - 14.7 = 20.58psi Boost

But when you feed Sea Level Atmospheric pressure into one turbo running at 2.4PR, and then push that through another turbo running 2.4PR you get a combined PR of 5.76

5.76 * 14.7 = 84.672psi Absolute
84.672 - 14.7 = 69.972psi Boost

Hope this is making sense.

So that is why I have all these wastegates (3 Internal, 2 External) so I can run single digit boost if I so desire while on the stock motor.

Next up is the results of the paper/theory on pure water injection with this setup..

 

This is the result of adding one tiny 1 GPH water nozzle 5-8 inches upstream of each turbo inlet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Dg2S1hSSmFqbVE

The results pretty much speak for themselves. They increase compressor efficiency and bring IATs down by 100*F in the manifold. This is in addition to running a larger efficient front mount intercooler after the secondary (high pressure stage) turbo.

So instead of ~210*F IATs, we are seeing 110-115, and potential output jumps 9-10%.

The "rule" that 10*F drop = 1% gain in power would give us about 60whp here and push max possible output to a potential 640whp for this setup, up from ~585.

I just want to stress that this is simply the theory on what the hardware involved can support, not necessarily what I expect it to make. But it is possible, and I am doing everything possible to get damn close.

 

Makes sense, have to read it a few more times but I am getting it.

 

Since the supercharger is spun by belt and pulley instead of exhaust I can't see that there is going to be as much to gain compared to someone doing the same with a turbo... There is a good side to that if I can bring the IAT down to ambient with less juice I could be pumping all of the time and hitting it hard at full boost... So you are saying that the lower IAT will have the effect of more air.. Is that due to water entering the intake, the W/M mixture or both? I have some IK20 Denso Plugs to put in, will that and juice make it possible to use more ignition advance or higher air to fuel ratio?

 

Well, its not really the exhaust that is heating the aircharge. The heat is coming into the equation as the air is flung off the compressor wheel in the rotrex and against the comp housing.

And most turbos are in fact more efficient than even the larger Rotrex units.

So this stands to provide you as much or more benefit than a comparable turbocharger setup.

The water takes up physical space and it cools the air making the air denser so it increases the compressors efficiency its self in addition to cooling the charge through evaporative cooling.

It is akin to an endothermic reaction.

You won't necessarily be able to flow more air by adding a small water nozzle pre or post compressor, but if you inject pre-compressor less heat will be put into the charge as it travels across the comp wheel by the compression process (adiabat/isentropic process).

So you'll have a colder more stable charge and you'll be able to run a little leaner and get away with more timing because you won't be retarding timing to start the burn later to avoid detonation, and you wont need to add more fuel to cool the chamber and slow the burn.

Basically you can take greater advantage of the boosted air you already have and be much more aggressive!

When I said my numbers were conservative earlier, it is not uncommon for water injection and water/meth injection to drop IATs 200-300*F.

You read that right 200-300F, this lets people get away with running no intercooler in some cases. A guy I know runs his Land Speed Car with no intercooler and a few extra nozzles in his intake pipe.

Its all about where you inject and how much, as well as what you inject.

So when you look at that spreadsheet and you see I list the two stages of water injection as only 50% efficient and IATs drop only ~100F that is me playing the math SUPER conservative.

I know of a few Nitrous/Methanol cars where there will be frost built up on the intake system on a 90*F day at the track.

I'm gonna get to sleep early for the first time in a while, but ill be able to better respond tomorrow Dee, talk to you later!

 

Check this link out for a hint:
Snow Performance : FAQ diesel

 

I've read that awhile back..I saw a semi rig in town that was parked and blowing steam out of his stacks... The EGT is what determines how much juice they get so that thing must have been pretty hot. I suppose higher viscosity oil would be a good idea if you are going get into turning the engine into a steam/gasoline hybrid...

 

The intake pipe is vertical charge pipe exits the S/C vertically as well.. There is a right angle bend at the top of the intake pipe behind the conical filter so that might work.. What do you think? I just saw that you are crashing... I need to as well since I slept only 2 hours last night...

 

So I was hesitant to post it up, but thought this was kind of cool because it always feels good to get any sort of recognition, big or small when you put a lot of time into something (of the 40+ pics I sent the ones he chose were pretty funny, IMHO):

Chris Essman: Road-tripping in the Race Car » GEARBOX MAGAZINE

Guy stumbled across my projects, read some of my tech posts and asked me if I would be interested in an interview. Said why not and didnt think anything would come out of it, instead he published that and requested at least two more installments as both projects come together.

Maybe it'll help get me some more projects to fund the cars, and perhaps some sponsors down the road as I see results at the track. One can dream.

I'd like to think my father would've appreciated this. Shame he couldn't be around to see everything thats happened the last few months and whats hopefully yet to come next couple seasons.

 

Just another teaser - The HKS 40mm gate can sit on top of the collector of the manifold I'm having made with room to spare! Note the discharge will be facing the opposite direction to feed bypass exhaust gas to the other two turbines.

The WG discharge flow can be 350-500* hotter then the portion leaving the turbine because of all the energy used to perform work on the turbine wheel.. this heat energy from the WG will light off the other two turbos much faster after the 14B's internal gate cracks open as well. This should provide excellent boost control as well, being that there are two wastegates on the 1st turbine stage (40mm external and the 32mm ported internal wastegate.)

Heres a shot of the HKS waste gate sitting on the factory heat shield with everything still installed. GDs have a ton of room to work with fortunately.

The other advantage to using the dsm turbine housing flange means I can swap in any TDO5H style turbo for in any of the three spots.

I could run two 16Gs and a 14B, or just three 16Gs, or two 14Bs feeding into a 16G.. or two 20Gs and an 18G, etc.

The only difference would be changing the couplers on the intake pipes at the compressor housings, and possibly adding J-pipes on the compressor discharge.

Literally everything else could stay the same, with the exception of a couple oil feed adapter fittings for the CHRAs which are cheap anyways.

 

been a month since you last posted, any progress?!

 

It's still crawling along, too many projects at once.. but this is a big step in the right direction. Should allow for further fab work on the current design without the car having to be down for long periods.

 

That is cool. Now you have extra parts too, which is a good thing. Are you going to rebuild that motor when you are done with your engine?

 

This is L15A1 #3, primarily for mockup as #2 is in pieces and #1 is in the car.

This extra trans is for backup and potentially building up.. refresh, cryo and then reshim/pre-load. Possibly being sent to Liberty Gears to see if they can frankensteing some of their B-series dog gears to work and make the Fit a 4spd DogBox.

I expect I'll be shearing the teeth and splines off stock gears and the input shaft the second the 14B spikes the 40mm wastegate open, spooling the T25's near instantly... Lot of compound-turbo'd gas motors coming out of the woodwork lately.

My race car is finally nearing completion, should be around the end of october when I get to roll out on the big turbo.

 

Chris you have mail.

Thank you,

Stefano

 

Missed that you had 3. I cant wait to see it when its done. Extra parts is a very good thing these days.


We got the Acura on the road. It runs good with the stock tune and holds 5 psi but burns a little oil when off the gas. We think is the pvc block (Honda Crankcase Ventilation System - Honda Tuning Magazine) behind the motor. The car needs plugs,wires and cap and then a full tune.

 

Responded

 

Looks like a major hurdle has been cleared for not just mine.. but all GD Fit builds, behold:

FlashPro Fit

Thanks to:
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/1st-...w-hondata.html

Not only has this made a giant leap for Fit-kind, but it has just about cut the cost of what I was expecting to pay for EMS by two-thirds!