Understanding that the current HFC cars are basically chemical battery cars. I was wondering if there was the possibility of creating an internal combustion engine powered by hydrogen fuel? What would be the biggest hurdle in it's design? What would be it's potential? And, what does everyone think of the current FCX?

 

Internal combustion engines have a very low theoretical maximum efficiency... I don't remember the exact number, but it's under 20%. Electric motors are much more efficient...

 

Alright. That speaks to it's potential. But, what of it's possibility?

 

Actually, it speaks to neither.

Potential: unlimited. it's the exact same internal combustion engine we have now, just a new fuel to burn.

Possibility: it makes no sense; electric drive is better in every way. But hey, SUV's are neither sporty nor utilitarian, but they build the terds anyway... so yea, it's possible.

 

Anything that expands in volume cna be an engine. The combusion of oxygen and hydrogen makes water, which is a decrease in volume (the reaction creates a vacuum, the oppsoite needed for an engine). <-- this is based on my own logic, and I'm 90% sure I'm correct.

Gasoline is fuel for one reason: the combustion is a volume expansion. If there was an alternative way to get expansion, that would be a type of alternative fuel. Fortunately there is. There's actually a car type called air cars, which uses compressed air. The compressor (charging station) is powered by electricity and pumps air into the tank. The tank decompresses air, as a source of volume increase. Although most people never heard of this, they are the most well developed given how much focus is in there. They can do 60mph and drive 250 miles.

60 mph is slow, but 250 miles per "tank" is amazing for an alterative fuel. Hybrids and diesels are current technologies that get more, but most new alternative fuels like ethanol, hydrogen, and electric, struggle to get a good distance per "tank"

 

My friend recently built one of these air cars in her engineering class. They are very slow. I think the record mph is 40.

 

I'm thinking that an advance in a pre-existing technology would be faster to mainstream than new technology. Considering the majority is slow on the uptake. Why not perfect something before we move on to something else? Give the people time to come to terms with advancement. Similar to Hybrid engines, and ethanol.

 

It takes years to perfect something. Petroleum is one of the most perfect becuase of its history. This is why hybrids and other cars struggle to wow us, becuase they're only a lil better than petroleum. hybrid also cost a lot--Research costs a lot of money.

Diesel is a decent second. It's very good in europe. Solar panels in general, is a good example of soemthing not perfected and prematurely sold ionto the market. Costs a lot for only a slight benefit. Fortunately these are getting better too. Capitalism creates great things, but they cost a lot, and sometimes theres pressure ot get hte product out there before it's ready. The same is true with drugs, electronics (ie bluray), etc.

 

The theoretical efficiency for IC engines is dependent on what fuel is used, and what compression ratio the pistons are set up for. Hydrogen ICEs can have theoretical thermal efficiencies above 60% (see this excellent paper on the subject for more info).

Several companies have made prototype hydrogen fuel cars including Ford and BMW. The major impediment to production of these vehicles is the lack of fuel delivery infrastructure.

The combustion product of hydrogen and oxygen is indeed water, but the reaction is highly exothermic (it blows up ), which makes it work fine in an ICE.

 

This is an awesome thread. I have never heard of air cars before, but now I want one. The rest of this is going to be a rant, so if you're the argumentative type, you may wish to stop here.

There are a variety of great alternatives to gasoline, but car companies don't endorse them because 1) as was just noted, there is presently may be no way to acquire whatever it might take to run them, but more importantly, 2) US car makers refuse to endorse automotive technology that would be detrimental to the oil industry. Until we plum the last barrel out of the ground, it's going to be a real fight to get anything else in the market. This E-85 business is, for my money, bordering on the absurd.

I will never buy a GM product until the day that they can sell me an updated EV-1, you know, like the ones they shredded after California overturned their requirement that zero-impact vehicles be made available.

Please pardon my rant.

 

I would like to have the ability to swap a "green" motor into a body I already own

 

You aren't likely to find too many hydrogen engines out there, but there is the engine from the Honda Civic GX which is a 1.8L natural gas burner with 113hp.

 

Thanks to ZebiFit for the article provided. I knew I wasn't delusional. But, I did forget about the GX and CNG in general. They're good options to have at hand. I'm not really concerned with infrastructure at the moment. I'm looking for an estimate on my Fit's value in say 17-20 years from now. If my kids would want it, I could convert it for them. That kind of hypothetical situation kinda thing.

 

That's not why Ford and others promote hydrogen. The common saying is "They said this technology will be ready in 15 years, 15 years ago". Promoting hydrogen is a stalling technique to shut up environmentalists. It's like if you sit on a donkey, and hold a carrot with a fishing pole in his face, to get him to go where you want.

The impedement is cost. The current hy fuel car costs $1,000,000. No matter how much R&D, this will never becom eaffordable. There's a toy hydrogen car called H-racer which costs 99$. The better R/C version with real hydrogen tanks (can hold pressured liquid state hydrogen) costs $1000 and maybe 1 ft long. If a miniature hy fuel cell costs that much, imagine a real hy fuel cell car.

Have you followed the Volt? You sound like you havent'. This is literally GM's biggest project. Bob Lutz is in charge of this. He co-designed the viper, and he says designing the volt is more fun than th viper. Google it. If you never heard of the Volt, then shame on you. And yes, the volt is going to be sold. I'ts not just a concept car for Press release.

 

The Volts ok . But, I think "ThePaulson" was reffering to a vehicle GM leased around the mid 90's. For some reason they were recalled and destroyed. Hardly anyone remembers them. I think it's fiascoes like that, that lead people to presume the domestic market is more concerned with extravagance than efficiency.