Does adding fuel injector cleaner to your tank change the way your car runs? That is 1 of the differences. Regular gas will be similar but still different because of the different amount of additives. Premium branded fuel is very specific and is brand protected. McMahon goes to different terminals to pickup the brand ordered. The pipe lines going to different terminals only deliver what they ordered and is not shared. It was only BP that was affected.
List of gasoline additives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia additive used in gasoline.

I-Team: Test of different popular brands of gasoline shows big differences in emissions, mileage and you will get over it.

 

n9, your comments make a lot of sense to me. so a given refinery sells all fuel in a certain area, as I understand from what you wrote. is there the opportunity after that for brands to add detergents/additives before it gets put in the petrol station tanks for consumption?

 

In most cases no. There is the capacity to do some mixing at the terminals but these days that is mostly used only to mix ethanol. There is a requirement to add red dye to non-taxed fuel which is also done at loading time.

In days past when we had lots of smaller refineries and less regulations there was quite a bit of special mixing being done. I can remember when there was 6 refineries in a 15 mile radius of BP whiting refinery. At the time Clark had a refinery in Blue Island, Martin had one over there also, and they use to add purple dye to their "ethyl". Citgo (Cities Service, now Valero ) had one in East Chicago, as did Sinclair and Mobil. Today there is only one. BP

I can remember when Marathon bought 49% of the Checker brand of discount stations. A fellow in Chicago Heights, Illinois owned the other 51%. Marathon bought is so they could supply the stations. At the time all of the stations except one in Michigan, were supplied directly by Marathon. Later they bought a discount brand of Speedway out of Indianapolis. Today Checker / Speedway is all Speedway brand and is totally owned by Marathon, but the fuel is now supplied by the local terminals (not necessarily the same brand) for the geography they are located in.

As for the other fellow that posted on the debacle. Yes, Only BP refined fuel was affected during the debacle, but at the RETAIL level many, MANY DIFFERENT BRANDS brands were affected since it all came out of the same BP batch of a little over 2.1 million gallons with too much polymer (asphalt like substance) and delivered on two consecutive days.

Conner is the other major transport outfit and primarily hauls out of BP Whiting. On larger orders usually a given load goes entirely to a given station. On smaller orders a given load can be split between stations and brands. Most stations handle 3 grades, Some stations only handle only two. Some stations also sell diesel and kerosene. At the terminal locations fuel is stored in very large tanks for future delivery. There is no tank for Shell and another for Marathon and another for BP, etc, etc. As I said before all fuel is not the same but the differences these days are primarily by geographic area, and EPA non-attainment areas. In the US there are are also differences by retail elevation. Where 87 is common in most of the US, 1 or 1.5 octane lower fuel can be sold at retail at higher elevations. Anyone bought fuel in Denver recently?

Side note: There are lot of different tanker trailers out there but the maximum fuel load is usually 8900 to 9100 gallons. They are usually divided into up to 4 tanks. They are made in straight and tapered versions. The straight ones are nothing more that a big long cylinder. The tapered versions are lower in the center and allow more complete draining at the delivery point and are especially useful if the delivery point is not completely level.

 

n9cv, I get your point and agree for the most part but gas composition is still different from brand to brand and tank from tank. Yes it all comes from crude oil and is refined but the blend recipes are different from brand to brand. Bp refines an extra step to remove all PNA's and uses xylene instead of toluene but toluene might be used too. My point is adding a specific additive changes the composition and that equates to quality and purity of the blend(mpg and power).

Yes private stations use tankers that might of been used for BP and because the tanks are not purged so contamination from the bad gas could happen. There was a shortage of premium around my work and that was days before BP bad gas.

http://www.api.org/Oil-and-Natural-G...ut-Octane.aspx

 

They sell 85 at several locations in Reno, NV, I almost made a booboo once at an independent station there and had to look twice, not used to that in CA.

I am not sure if that's just because of location or elevation?

I've heard 100x that gas is gas but every time I fill up with Valero or Arco my Fit idles and pulls like crap, like it sounds/feels like ECU is pulling timing away. That is not the case with my Chrysler or any other car i've had, but the Fit is very finicky like that. I just use Chevron, Mobil or Shell and it seems to be fine.

 

To give you some better insight on how fuel is delivered. Here is a listing of the sites and brands that all got the the same bad fuel out of the same bad 2.1 million gallon batch. Notice that the brands are all over the place though the fuel all came out of the same (BP) refinery and same storage tank.

Tri-State Area Gasoline Quality Issue - Station List - Indiana

Tri-State Area Gasoline Quality Issue - Station List - Illinois

I have a neighbor that delivers fuel from the BP Whiting refinery. He has been doing this for 35 years and is about to retire. Occasionally they will call him enroute after he has left with a load and redirect him to a different station. Meaning the fuel that he was was suppose to deliver to a Speedway station gets redirected and dropped at a BP station. Or possibly the reverse.

The only thing the driver and dispatcher must do is pay attention to not deliver EPA attainment county fuel a Non EPA attainment county station. There is a $25,000 EPA fine to the driver if he is caught doing this so the drivers are very careful.

The other specialized load is dyed non-taxed fuel. Most of that is diesel instead of gasoline.

I'm done with this posting. If you choose not to agree with or understand this, that is your prerogative. If you doubt it and want more information , then get someone to take you to a fuel terminal and watch them load the tanker trucks. Or the next time you see a tanker dropping fuel at your favorite station, ask the driver where it comes from and if there are different loading nozzles and vapor recovery hoses at the terminal for the different brands he hauls.

 

n9, I don't know that anyone disbelieves you. At least to me, you seem to have personal experience that would be unlikely to be faked

There's just a disconnect between what you have experienced and the brand-protection that one expects from companies with brands with huge $$$ value. I'm personally very interested in trying to understand it.

 

That's all well and good yes, it is not news that Thornton's, Speedway, etc will buy gas from a major supplier.

But what you won't see is Branded gas like Shell end up in a BP station.

Thanks for taking the time to shed a little light on the logistics behind getting fuel from the local refineries to the pump for those who might no be familiar.

My girlfriend was a freight broker (now Quality Manager) for a 3PL group that coordinated a great many of those trucks around the country.

Now with what you said in mind... please be aware that I can see the differences in the fuel when I'm running datalogs. I can see it in E85 when they change blends, I can see it between E0 and E10 in premium.

How is that? The stoich changes, the resistance changes (ASTM D 2624), the aromatics/olefins ratio is specific to brands, etc.

The fuel is different and can be different in a consistent pattern. This is not disputable.

 

COstco suk put some in the other day its sucks lol End of story put shell in gas is better

 

No problem. What you are hearing was true in years past. Many years ago there were many smaller refineries owned by the various oil companies that would refine their own fuel primarily for their own stations. The fuel delivery vehicles were also owned by those companies and you saw tank trucks going down the road banded with Shell, Chevron, Texaco, Standard, Arco, Union 76, Sinclair, Sohio, Esso, Mobil, Phillips66, Conoco, Amoco, Sunoco, etc. When is the last time you have seen one of those? There are still a few branded smaller vehicles for retail delivery like home heating oil.

The old business was an integrated one where the larger companies tried to control, run, and or own every aspect obtaining, producing, and transporting and selling high volume petroleum products. Today those are clearly separate business units. Exploration and drilling, transport, refining, and retail marketing are all separate business units. Each has it's own profit and loss objectives.

In most cases only the mega refineries are still in business. With the government (primarily the EPA and in some cases the state) now dictating the specifications for fuel sold at retail, there is very little room for variation between brands. The companies have found that it is no longer cost efficient to run the smaller refineries or to run small batches at the large refineries. There are still a few refineries around that do smaller runs. Most are small co-op or specialty refineries. I can think of a few like one in Great Falls, Montana and another in Indiana that fit that description. As an example there are a few that only make small batches of leaded aviation fuel. Yes, they still put lead in aviation gas and aviation fuel is running $2.00 to $3.50 more per gallon than automotive fuel. 100 Low Lead is what is specified for aviation gasoline these days and NO ETHANOL is allowed. But that is another story and the blend is regulated by the FAA, not the EPA or the state.

If we could get the government out of the fuel regulation business, fuel would be cheaper for all of us.

The same consolidation has occurred at the retail level. The smaller six or nine hose stations delivering 3 products are all but gone. The much larger self service (except in Oregon) stores that sell cigarettes, soft drinks, food, etc. and next to nothing automotive are the norm. Fuel is the low profit draw while the real profit is in the other items available for sale.

The design of a refinery is primarily based on it's source of crude. After that, the design is centered on the desired output products (Gas, Diesel, Kerosene, Jet fuel, Asphalt, Propane, lubricating oil, etc.). There are also products that go to chemical companies for things like plastics, etc. That output mix has evolved and will continue to evolve over the years. At the turn of the previous century the primary Petroleum product was Kerosene and was sold for lighting. Today the products are primarily used for transportation, heating, electrical power generation, lubrication, and various petrochemical products.

In the case of gasoline at a given refinery the product all comes from the same sources and is being off loaded at the same terminal into the same tanker trucks. What is being put forth here is that there must be some guy standing at the terminal gate and every batch of fuel gong out is modified for each brand as the truck leaves the terminal. That isn't happening. A given product type all comes from the same storage tank no matter what retail brand it will be sold under. If it the proposed brand variations were pre-mixed then the terminal would have to be 10 times as complex and would have to contain separate tanks and additional loading facilities for each retail brand sold. It does not happen that way in today's environment. They have enough of a problem just meeting the separation and mixing requirements of today's normal and EPA required "boutique" fuels for EPA non-attainment areas.

Sorry but it is all marketing hype.

 

85 and 86 octane fuels are suppose to be sold only at elevations above 4000 feet. It is a holdover from the days of carburetor engines. Because you can not get as much air into the cylinders at say 5000 feet as you can as sea level lower (less expensive) 85 will run just fine. On more modern computer controlled engines the PCM or ECU will compensate for lower air charge into the cylinders. Some Rocky Mountain States allow 85 and 86 to be sold. I do not know all of the states but Nevada, Colorado, and Montana are a few of them. The problem is what happens when you fill up in Reno and try to burn that fuel is Sacremento.

 

n9cv, Here is how branding works. http://www.api.org/aboutoilgas/uploa...gas_retail.pdf.

 

You are quoting a 9 year old document about how things were and not how they are today. There were over 300 refineries from the 1940's until the 1980's. By the year 2000 that number dropped to 158. According to the US Energy Information Administration (EIA) the figure for 2012 is 134 refineries with an additional 10 that are still operable but idle. That is less than 3 per state. Even with that lower number, production is up around 20% over the same period though down slightly in 2012. You could say this 3 per state is an average and low population states might have only 0 or 1. I can give you and example to the contrary. Montana (a very large geographic - low population state) has 4 refineries. I visited three of them this summer.

There is something in the pricing of fuel called displacement. Basically displacement is transportation cost. If I have a terminal close by fed by a pipeline wholesale costs are cheaper. If I as a retailer were to choose to get fuel (assuming the EPA and state would allow it) from somewhere farther away, my wholesale costs will be higher than the brand down the street. Also in the case of boutique (regional) fuels that refinery of my brand will probably will not be making the blend required in my county. Faced with that reality what do I do. Either I close down and get out of the market or I source from a refinery that has the product that I can sell competitively in my market. This Boutique fuel problem is especially noticeable in California because their state laws are more stringent than other states and no out of state refinery makes theri blend. So anytime there is a supply disruption, out of state refined fuel cannot be imported and sold in California.

Here is a listing of the 17 largest refineries in the US. Please notice that none of them belong to Shell. Where does Shell get it's fuel to sell at retail across the US.? I believe they have 4 refineries. Martinez, California, One in Texas, and 2 in Louisiana. So in the California and southern US markets there is a good chance that you got Shell branded fuel from a Shell branded refinery. There also was a merger of sorts between Shell and Texaco so they probably also supply Texaco in those areas. In other areas of the country. Where and how do you think Shell branded stations get their fuel?

Refining Crude Oil - Energy Explained, Your Guide To Understanding Energy - Energy Information Administration

I'll also tell you that this industry is always in flux. What is true today will change tomorrow. These companies are always trying to add or shed facilities based on their projected needs or projected profitability. I know last year both Shell and BP were trying to shed some refineries. I believe the Shell ones were all outside of the US.

You are correct. It probably would be rare for a Shell refinery to supply a BP retailer since BP is primarily in the Midwest and East Coast market where there is no Shell refining capability. BP is a merger of the AMOCO which was Standard Oil of Indiana. BP was an East Coast brand owned out of the UK. When Sinclair was sold off, BP bought the east coast assets while Arco bought the Midwest and west areas. This was BP's first real entry into the US markets.

The opposite is entirely possible since Shell has retail outlets in areas where they do not have refining capacity or terminals. I believe most Shell retailers in Illinois are supplied by the Exon-Mobil refinery in Joliet, IL.

It is a good discussion but I'm tired of typing. Take it or leave it. I do not care. Lets discuss something Honda Fit oriented.

 

I still remember the big tank farms for Texaco and Humble (Exxon)... The Humble location was close to the old Texas Stadium in Irving and was gone in 1969.. I had to go out to the Texaco facility a time or two to pick up drums of Marfak gear and chassis lube.. We were still taking fuel deliveries from Texaco tank trucks up until 1980.... In the 1950s it was common to see intersections with company franchised service stations on 3 of the corners.. If you wanted to get your car serviced, washed, repaired you could drop it off and be driven home or someone would drive to your house in a surplus WW2 jeep and drive your car back to do the work... Thinking back about this stuff has opened my eyes to how far we've gone in the wrong direction.

 

I did some additional research today for the two people from Illinois. Shell Oil does have one terminal in Illinois and none in Indiana The one is located in Des Plaines and supplies Jet fuel (by truck) primarily to Ohare. It's fuel source is the WRB refinery in Wood River, Illinois (formerly owned by BP-AMOCO). Refined fuel is transported to Des Plaines through the Buckeye pipeline. They have 6 medium and small storage tanks at that location. This does not help much for your point as this location is not supplying Chicago area EPA non-attainment Automotive Fuel. At one time Shell did own a tank farm / terminal in Hammond, IN. It was sold years ago to Buckeye Pipeline. It was primarily a transshipment and storage point between 6 different pipelines. When I was a high school kid I worked at a Shell station right across the street from this place.

This time I'm really finished with this thread.

 

Having a refinery is one thing but can't the refinery do different blends for different customers?

I mean, my local pizza place uses the same dough, sauce and cheese for all pizzas but some have pepperoni added before it gets put in the box or on your plate.

 

There are many terminals in the Chicago and 4 around O hare airport. Yes all gas is similar but because the way its delivered to the terminals regular could be contaminated with diesel and still be sold. Additives are different and even if a BP goes to a Mobil terminal the base fuel is a Mobil product but with the additives that make it BP. Regular gas will be more similar than brand name premium gas. http://opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/view...%20Gasoline%22

 

Road & Track addressed the exact question in their Q&A of the most recent issue. In an nutshell, they said that there is not that much leeway with what chemical formula makes up "gasoline" and so yes, there is one refinery for a large area and branded tankers get all the same gas from it. And THEN (at some unspecified time later) they add their proprietary detergents.

I can't really imagine when this occurs, unless it's in the tanker itself! But in any case, that is what Road & Track had to say about it

 

They put a card in for what ever brand they are shipping at the terminal and the computer mixes additives to the fuel. It could be 50 percent of the total product.


I have been experimenting with gasoline and Shell regular and premium I see only a small difference in timing and none in the fuel trims Their midgrade I lose mpg. I usually use BP premium with excellent results but the last few tanks there was no difference to Shell. I got gas yesterday and used BP regular and my fuel trims are now zero. I think BP switched premium for regular to get their customers back. They raised the price of their premium 45 cents over regular and could not tell me why. Fuel trims and timing and EGR flow tell me what fuel I am burning. BP premium was always different and consistent.

 

In 1995 the EPA issued a rule stating what detergents must be used in all automotive gasoline sold at retail.