1991 Honda Accord EXR 4 dr

September 2004 I had a hole in my oil pan so I brought it into my dealer
(up until now their service has been very good). They replaced the oil pan
and gasket.

In October 2004 I developed a major oil leak. The dealer said it was a
defective gasket and replaced it, no charge.

In November 2004 I developed another major oil leak. The dealer said it
was another defective gasket and replaced it no charge. I asked for
financial compensation and they said they don't do that and gave me a $65
credit on my account. They said this time it will not leak!!

In December 2004 I had a fuel line leak (unrelated to the oil leaks),
however they noticed that there was a small oil leak at the balance shaft
seal, oil pump ring. I then took the car to my new mechanic who fixed the
gas leak for $50 instead of $800 as quoted by the dealer. The new mechanic
said the new oil leak was not serious and did not have to be dealt with.
It was just a small leak and was not dripping.

This week (March 2005) I developed another major oil leak. I brought it to
my new mechanic who said it was the oil pan gasket again! He also noticed
that they had used silicone all around the gasket and that is why it was
leaking!! I then brought it back to the dealer for another free
replacement.

The dealer replaced the gasket again. They admitted that when they changed
it in November that they did use silicone all around the gasket, but that
the reason that it started leaking is that the oil dripping down from the
balance shaft seal, oil pump ring managed to eat away at the neoprene seal
and that until I fixed the other leak at the oil pump seal, which is very
minor, the gasket would continue to fail. So the oil inside the oil pan
would not affect the seal, but a minor leak on the outside would??? When I
pressed for financial compensation they said they would see what they
could do about going back to Honda for the first 2 defective seals
although now they are saying that the oil pump seal leak could have been
there in September although they only discovered in December. (Bulls**t!!)

This time when they changed the gasket they only put a bit of silicone on
the 4 corners.

My questions are:
1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the whole
gasket, could this have caused problems?
2) Could a small oil leak in the oilpump seal, drip down onto the oil pan
gasket and cause the seal or silicone to deteriorate?

Any other comments, insight, suggestions much appreciated.

 

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:48:26 -0500, Mike <mfine@nospammagma.ca> wrote:

>My questions are:
>1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the whole
>gasket, could this have caused problems?

I don't see how.

>2) Could a small oil leak in the oilpump seal, drip down onto the oil pan
>gasket and cause the seal or silicone to deteriorate?

No.

Don't go to dealers except for warranty work and parts.

Sometimes if the pan bolts are overtorqued it can pull the metal
around the bolt hole into a little hump that compromises the ability
of the pan gasket to seal. With the pan off, check the mating surface
with a straight-edge. If there are humps, carefully file them flat.

Where are you? Ottawa? Toronto?

 

I am located in Ottawa.

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 06:35:15 -0800, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:48:26 -0500, Mike <mfine@nospammagma.ca> wrote:
>
>> My questions are:
>> 1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the
>> whole
>> gasket, could this have caused problems?
>
> I don't see how.
>
>> 2) Could a small oil leak in the oilpump seal, drip down onto the oil
>> pan
>> gasket and cause the seal or silicone to deteriorate?
>
> No.
>
> Don't go to dealers except for warranty work and parts.
>
> Sometimes if the pan bolts are overtorqued it can pull the metal
> around the bolt hole into a little hump that compromises the ability
> of the pan gasket to seal. With the pan off, check the mating surface
> with a straight-edge. If there are humps, carefully file them flat.
>
> Where are you? Ottawa? Toronto?
>
>

 

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:39:13 -0500, Mike
<ottdotforsaleNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I am located in Ottawa.

Go here: http://www.plus1performance.com

Pat will do right by you. It's a small shop in an obscure location,
but that's the best kind. Such places depend on word of mouth
recommendations from satisfied customers, they get no walk-in
business.

 

try PCV valve.

 

I have since found out that there is no probelm with the PCV valve and
their is no Blowby

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 12:46:10 -0500, disallow <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @>
wrote:

> try PCV valve.
>

 

If the gasket failed because of oil contact, the whole motor would be
leaking ALL THE TIME.

Likely the mechanics are OVER tightening the oil pan bolts, crushing the
gasket and forcing it outward, causing the leaks.

"Mike" <mfine@nospammagma.ca> wrote in message
news:opsn3fa0vytlqrmb@michael...
> 1991 Honda Accord EXR 4 dr
>
> September 2004 I had a hole in my oil pan so I brought it into my dealer
> (up until now their service has been very good). They replaced the oil pan
> and gasket.
>
> In October 2004 I developed a major oil leak. The dealer said it was a
> defective gasket and replaced it, no charge.
>
> In November 2004 I developed another major oil leak. The dealer said it
> was another defective gasket and replaced it no charge. I asked for
> financial compensation and they said they don't do that and gave me a $65
> credit on my account. They said this time it will not leak!!
>
> In December 2004 I had a fuel line leak (unrelated to the oil leaks),
> however they noticed that there was a small oil leak at the balance shaft
> seal, oil pump ring. I then took the car to my new mechanic who fixed the
> gas leak for $50 instead of $800 as quoted by the dealer. The new mechanic
> said the new oil leak was not serious and did not have to be dealt with.
> It was just a small leak and was not dripping.
>
> This week (March 2005) I developed another major oil leak. I brought it to
> my new mechanic who said it was the oil pan gasket again! He also noticed
> that they had used silicone all around the gasket and that is why it was
> leaking!! I then brought it back to the dealer for another free
> replacement.
>
> The dealer replaced the gasket again. They admitted that when they changed
> it in November that they did use silicone all around the gasket, but that
> the reason that it started leaking is that the oil dripping down from the
> balance shaft seal, oil pump ring managed to eat away at the neoprene seal
> and that until I fixed the other leak at the oil pump seal, which is very
> minor, the gasket would continue to fail. So the oil inside the oil pan
> would not affect the seal, but a minor leak on the outside would??? When I
> pressed for financial compensation they said they would see what they
> could do about going back to Honda for the first 2 defective seals
> although now they are saying that the oil pump seal leak could have been
> there in September although they only discovered in December. (Bulls**t!!)
>
> This time when they changed the gasket they only put a bit of silicone on
> the 4 corners.
>
> My questions are:
> 1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the whole
> gasket, could this have caused problems?
> 2) Could a small oil leak in the oilpump seal, drip down onto the oil pan
> gasket and cause the seal or silicone to deteriorate?
>
> Any other comments, insight, suggestions much appreciated.

 

weird, must be a bad install on the gasket then,
like the other suggested, maybe over torqued?

t

 

I agree with John about the overtorquing, but not about filing the humps
off, as that would weaken (and maybe enlarge) the area that the bolts go
through the oil pan flange. I would suggest chucking a large punch
vertically in a vise, putting each of the mounting holes on top of it and
(carefully) tapping each one flat with a hammer until the area has the same
level surface as the area between each hole. Clean all of the area that the
gasket will rest on and reinstall, being careful not to overtorque, and to
work from each corner toward the middle when running the bolts up.

If overtorquing was the cause of the problem, when you remove the pan and
examine the old gasket, you can frequently see signs that the gasket is
thinner, or maybe even breached in the areas of the bolt holes.

Have the dealer remove the pan in your presence and look for these signs. If
they are present, suggest that they repair or replace the oil pan at their
expense, since this would be clear evidence of improper repairs.

Good luck.
"John Ings" <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message
news:n5v2415kek19fts8ken8qn8889n5tnqaoc@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 08:48:26 -0500, Mike <mfine@nospammagma.ca> wrote:
>
>>My questions are:
>>1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the whole
>>gasket, could this have caused problems?
>
> I don't see how.
>
>>2) Could a small oil leak in the oilpump seal, drip down onto the oil pan
>>gasket and cause the seal or silicone to deteriorate?
>
> No.
>
> Don't go to dealers except for warranty work and parts.
>
> Sometimes if the pan bolts are overtorqued it can pull the metal
> around the bolt hole into a little hump that compromises the ability
> of the pan gasket to seal. With the pan off, check the mating surface
> with a straight-edge. If there are humps, carefully file them flat.
>
> Where are you? Ottawa? Toronto?
>
>

 

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:47:06 -0500, "Steppenwolf"
<aspenbus"@"bellsouth.net> wrote:

>I agree with John about the overtorquing, but not about filing the humps
>off, as that would weaken (and maybe enlarge) the area that the bolts go
>through the oil pan flange. I would suggest chucking a large punch
>vertically in a vise, putting each of the mounting holes on top of it and
>(carefully) tapping each one flat with a hammer until the area has the same
>level surface as the area between each hole.

You misunderstand. The humps are in the block metal the pan is bolted
to. Overtorquing can literally pull the metal around the threads out
of the block a thou or so. It's not much, and only over an area about
twice the diameter of the bolt, but it's often the cause of mysterious
leakage.

>If overtorquing was the cause of the problem, when you remove the pan and
>examine the old gasket, you can frequently see signs that the gasket is
>thinner, or maybe even breached in the areas of the bolt holes.

Yes.

 

If the metal on the block mating surface is pulled, then filing it smooth
(or even chamfering the hole slightly) is certainly in order. However, I
much more frequently have seen the relatively thin metal of the oil pan
itself distorted. Either way, the result would be to put more pressure on
the gasket in the bolt hole area, and that would need to be addressed in
order to effect a complete seal.Either way, both would have to be checked.


"John Ings" <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message
news:ei9441177t4lrg6co3g2gvlgvq0bqahmrr@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 20:47:06 -0500, "Steppenwolf"
> <aspenbus"@"bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>I agree with John about the overtorquing, but not about filing the humps
>>off, as that would weaken (and maybe enlarge) the area that the bolts go
>>through the oil pan flange. I would suggest chucking a large punch
>>vertically in a vise, putting each of the mounting holes on top of it and
>>(carefully) tapping each one flat with a hammer until the area has the
>>same
>>level surface as the area between each hole.
>
> You misunderstand. The humps are in the block metal the pan is bolted
> to. Overtorquing can literally pull the metal around the threads out
> of the block a thou or so. It's not much, and only over an area about
> twice the diameter of the bolt, but it's often the cause of mysterious
> leakage.
>
>>If overtorquing was the cause of the problem, when you remove the pan and
>>examine the old gasket, you can frequently see signs that the gasket is
>>thinner, or maybe even breached in the areas of the bolt holes.
>
> Yes.
>
>

 

Mike wrote:

> but that the reason that it started leaking is that the oil
> dripping down from the balance shaft seal, oil pump ring managed to eat
> away at the neoprene seal and that until I fixed the other leak at the
> oil pump seal, which is very minor, the gasket would continue to fail.

Thats a HOOT! I'll add that one to my list of VERY funny quotes about
bad service. Neoprene by itself is oil resistant. Its the same rubber
your oil seals are made of. If a small leak could destroy an oil pan
gasket, its NOT made of neoprene!

> My questions are:
> 1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the
> whole gasket, could this have caused problems?

Silicone is typically NOT oil resistant and makes a poor choice for a
gasket sealer for anything that has oil behind it.

> 2) Could a small oil leak in the oilpump seal, drip down onto the oil
> pan gasket and cause the seal or silicone to deteriorate?

It could cause the silicone to deteriorate, but thats not your real problem!

Hey others wrote about "bumps" and filing and all that in other posts.
Let me address some of that:

On the motor itself you should check for pulled threads and file any
protrusions flat, but they really dont have a big effect on the gasket
sealing.

On the pan- Overtightening will cause humps in the steel that will
affect sealing. When the pan is off, check to see that each hole is
flat. If it isnt you can use the ball end of your ballpeen hammer and
knock the pan flat or even slightly concave. My personal preference for
a sealer if you choose to use one is Gasgacinch. Tighten the bolts snug,
but the gasket shouldnt be "oozing" from the joint. Check the bolts
again after a few heat cycles to make sure they are still snug. Using a
nutdriver is sufficient for this check-up.

Happy fixing!

-Pete

 

Me thinks you bottom out the car and the oil pan hit the
road/speed bump a lot.
Do you jack the front up using the oil pan as support?

Mike wrote:
>
> 1991 Honda Accord EXR 4 dr
>
> September 2004 I had a hole in my oil pan so I brought it into my dealer
> (up until now their service has been very good). They replaced the oil pan
> and gasket.
>
> In October 2004 I developed a major oil leak. The dealer said it was a
> defective gasket and replaced it, no charge.
>
> In November 2004 I developed another major oil leak. The dealer said it
> was another defective gasket and replaced it no charge. I asked for
> financial compensation and they said they don't do that and gave me a $65
> credit on my account. They said this time it will not leak!!
>
> In December 2004 I had a fuel line leak (unrelated to the oil leaks),
> however they noticed that there was a small oil leak at the balance shaft
> seal, oil pump ring. I then took the car to my new mechanic who fixed the
> gas leak for $50 instead of $800 as quoted by the dealer. The new mechanic
> said the new oil leak was not serious and did not have to be dealt with.
> It was just a small leak and was not dripping.
>
> This week (March 2005) I developed another major oil leak. I brought it to
> my new mechanic who said it was the oil pan gasket again! He also noticed
> that they had used silicone all around the gasket and that is why it was
> leaking!! I then brought it back to the dealer for another free
> replacement.
>
> The dealer replaced the gasket again. They admitted that when they changed
> it in November that they did use silicone all around the gasket, but that
> the reason that it started leaking is that the oil dripping down from the
> balance shaft seal, oil pump ring managed to eat away at the neoprene seal
> and that until I fixed the other leak at the oil pump seal, which is very
> minor, the gasket would continue to fail. So the oil inside the oil pan
> would not affect the seal, but a minor leak on the outside would??? When I
> pressed for financial compensation they said they would see what they
> could do about going back to Honda for the first 2 defective seals
> although now they are saying that the oil pump seal leak could have been
> there in September although they only discovered in December. (Bulls**t!!)
>
> This time when they changed the gasket they only put a bit of silicone on
> the 4 corners.
>
> My questions are:
> 1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the whole
> gasket, could this have caused problems?
> 2) Could a small oil leak in the oilpump seal, drip down onto the oil pan
> gasket and cause the seal or silicone to deteriorate?
>
> Any other comments, insight, suggestions much appreciated.

 

(piggy backing)

Did any of these monkeys verify that the PCV valve is functioning
correctly and that you do not have excessive pressure in the
crankcase. With a car at this age you could have wicked bad blow-by
that could be popping seals all over. Did it burn oil before it
started blowing it out the seals? Did you ever run it low/out of oil,
like when it had a hole in the pan? Have somebody you trust do a
leak-down test on the cylinders.

Assuming the leak-down test is OK, I would next be curious how you
came to have a leak in the oil pan originally. Did whatever damaged
the pan also damage the sealing surface on the block? Have they shown
you the failed gaskets? Presumably they are all failing at the same
place/in the same way.

The idea that a trickle of oil running down the outside of the pan
gasket would cause it to fail is absurd. That, along with the $800
quote on the fuel leak would make me want to run away from those guys.





>Mike wrote:
>>
>> 1991 Honda Accord EXR 4 dr
>>
>> September 2004 I had a hole in my oil pan so I brought it into my dealer
>> (up until now their service has been very good). They replaced the oil pan
>> and gasket.
>>
>> In October 2004 I developed a major oil leak. The dealer said it was a
>> defective gasket and replaced it, no charge.
>>
>> In November 2004 I developed another major oil leak. The dealer said it
>> was another defective gasket and replaced it no charge. I asked for
>> financial compensation and they said they don't do that and gave me a $65
>> credit on my account. They said this time it will not leak!!
>>
>> In December 2004 I had a fuel line leak (unrelated to the oil leaks),
>> however they noticed that there was a small oil leak at the balance shaft
>> seal, oil pump ring. I then took the car to my new mechanic who fixed the
>> gas leak for $50 instead of $800 as quoted by the dealer. The new mechanic
>> said the new oil leak was not serious and did not have to be dealt with.
>> It was just a small leak and was not dripping.
>>
>> This week (March 2005) I developed another major oil leak. I brought it to
>> my new mechanic who said it was the oil pan gasket again! He also noticed
>> that they had used silicone all around the gasket and that is why it was
>> leaking!! I then brought it back to the dealer for another free
>> replacement.
>>
>> The dealer replaced the gasket again. They admitted that when they changed
>> it in November that they did use silicone all around the gasket, but that
>> the reason that it started leaking is that the oil dripping down from the
>> balance shaft seal, oil pump ring managed to eat away at the neoprene seal
>> and that until I fixed the other leak at the oil pump seal, which is very
>> minor, the gasket would continue to fail. So the oil inside the oil pan
>> would not affect the seal, but a minor leak on the outside would??? When I
>> pressed for financial compensation they said they would see what they
>> could do about going back to Honda for the first 2 defective seals
>> although now they are saying that the oil pump seal leak could have been
>> there in September although they only discovered in December. (Bulls**t!!)
>>
>> This time when they changed the gasket they only put a bit of silicone on
>> the 4 corners.
>>
>> My questions are:
>> 1) When they changed the gasket in November and put silicone on the whole
>> gasket, could this have caused problems?
>> 2) Could a small oil leak in the oilpump seal, drip down onto the oil pan
>> gasket and cause the seal or silicone to deteriorate?
>>
>> Any other comments, insight, suggestions much appreciated.

 

Sean Dinh wrote:

> Me thinks you bottom out the car and the oil pan hit the
> road/speed bump a lot.

I live way off the beaten path and my poor civic has to put up with a
lot of oil pan dragging through the mud and gravel. Its nice and shiny
on the bottom! But no leaks from the oil pan gasket!

-Pete