Issues After Lost Motion Spring Recall
#342
08-18-2011, 03:43 AM
Finally decided to get the recall done. I definitely regret it now. Visually everything seems to be ok and nothing broken, but the ticking noise coming from the engine is driving me nuts. Planning to take it back this Friday and have them look at it. I am guessing they did not do a valve adjustment and the ticking is from the valves. Between 1.5k-2.5k it is so obvious that it is annoying. Why can't they just do it right once?
#343
08-18-2011, 11:39 AM
After the recall work, it could be my imagination, but I now notice most of the time when you lift off the throttle or get back on the throttle, there's some jerkiness forward/backward with the power. Is this fuel injectors or valves or what?
#344
08-18-2011, 11:48 AM
Would suspect bad valve adjustment, some of us got smoother running engines after the recall too. The writeup in the work they did for LMS for mine says (includes valve adjustment).
Haven't seen you around much in these parts lately. Didn't you use to post almost all the time?
Haven't seen you around much in these parts lately. Didn't you use to post almost all the time?
#345
08-18-2011, 12:18 PM
Would suspect bad valve adjustment, some of us got smoother running engines after the recall too. The writeup in the work they did for LMS for mine says (includes valve adjustment).
Haven't seen you around much in these parts lately. Didn't you use to post almost all the time?
Haven't seen you around much in these parts lately. Didn't you use to post almost all the time?
My engine is running without the ticking sound after the recall it seems. So wouldn't this suggest the valve are fine?
#346
09-15-2011, 03:39 PM
FWIW.....ups just delivered my set of LMS and the set of spacers/holders so I'll be doing the LMS replacement myself sometime soon.
Will take some pics along the way.....
geo
Will take some pics along the way.....
geo
#347
09-15-2011, 03:43 PM
Thanks,
#348
09-15-2011, 10:19 PM
geo
#350
09-16-2011, 08:18 AM
Wow can't believe you want to cover the time and expense of the recall service yourself. The majority of recall service work gets done without issue. It is mainly only the ones that have had problems that post here so leads you to think that most are done subpar. If it makes you feel better find a dealer where youy can view the service bays and watch them do the work on your car.
Also once you have completed the work yourself can you update Honda's database that the work was done? If not their records will show LMS recall was never completed and then if you would ever need warranty work on engine might cause hassles.
_
Also once you have completed the work yourself can you update Honda's database that the work was done? If not their records will show LMS recall was never completed and then if you would ever need warranty work on engine might cause hassles.
_
#351
09-16-2011, 11:06 AM
Getting it 'on the official record' would be my concern as well, but somehow I don't think geo is too concerned with it.
He will have a personal record [receipts and such] the work was done and his own guarantee as well - hats off to geo for taking charge!
He will have a personal record [receipts and such] the work was done and his own guarantee as well - hats off to geo for taking charge!
#352
09-16-2011, 11:06 AM
geo
#353
09-16-2011, 11:37 AM
Wow can't believe you want to cover the time and expense of the recall service yourself. The majority of recall service work gets done without issue. It is mainly only the ones that have had problems that post here so leads you to think that most are done subpar. If it makes you feel better find a dealer where youy can view the service bays and watch them do the work on your car.
Also once you have completed the work yourself can you update Honda's database that the work was done? If not their records will show LMS recall was never completed and then if you would ever need warranty work on engine might cause hassles.
_
Also once you have completed the work yourself can you update Honda's database that the work was done? If not their records will show LMS recall was never completed and then if you would ever need warranty work on engine might cause hassles.
_
I have all 3 versions of the recall bulletin sent to the dealers, as well as the 5-pound factory manual....and many years of doing my own work including other recalls on other cars with no problems. I'll have pics of everything starting with the parts packages and various steps along the way.....all of which I bet will be worth more to a future buyer of my car than an invoice from a dealer.
I have no more worries about doing this myself than most people here do about doing their own oil changes (Honda's records, subsequent warranty problems, etc). No bfd.
And when I originally called my local dealer (the only one within an hour's drive) about what the LMS work involved, the service director actually told me the techs were supposed to INSPECT THE LMS AND REPLACE ONLY THOSE WHICH SHOWED WEAR OR CRACKS. duuuuh. 'nuff said.
geo
#354
09-17-2011, 09:44 AM
The 2-3 hours it will take you to complete the work. But now you mention your dealer is an hours drive away so doing the work yourself actually does save you time.
That expense. So after shipping about $85-$90. That is three Mobil 1 oil changes and filters for me.
Not doubting your ability to perform this service just questioning why you'd want to take it on if not needed. Your long drive back and forth to the dealer would have probably made me consider doing it myself also if I didn't have to pay for the parts.
Your dealer's service writer was misinformed. Honda does not check for cracks or damage on springs. They check ID markings on springs to determine whether they are in recall range to be replaced.
_
Not doubting your ability to perform this service just questioning why you'd want to take it on if not needed. Your long drive back and forth to the dealer would have probably made me consider doing it myself also if I didn't have to pay for the parts.
Your dealer's service writer was misinformed. Honda does not check for cracks or damage on springs. They check ID markings on springs to determine whether they are in recall range to be replaced.
_
#355
09-17-2011, 09:29 PM
The 2-3 hours it will take you to complete the work. But now you mention your dealer is an hours drive away so doing the work yourself actually does save you time.
That expense. So after shipping about $85-$90. That is three Mobil 1 oil changes and filters for me.
Not doubting your ability to perform this service just questioning why you'd want to take it on if not needed. Your long drive back and forth to the dealer would have probably made me consider doing it myself also if I didn't have to pay for the parts.
Your dealer's service writer was misinformed. Honda does not check for cracks or damage on springs. They check ID markings on springs to determine whether they are in recall range to be replaced.
_
That expense. So after shipping about $85-$90. That is three Mobil 1 oil changes and filters for me.
Not doubting your ability to perform this service just questioning why you'd want to take it on if not needed. Your long drive back and forth to the dealer would have probably made me consider doing it myself also if I didn't have to pay for the parts.
Your dealer's service writer was misinformed. Honda does not check for cracks or damage on springs. They check ID markings on springs to determine whether they are in recall range to be replaced.
_
And the driving time is only part of the total time required...to make an appointment at some time convenient to somebody else...then either wait on them or come back later...the engine needs to cool...the silicone needs to cure...the tech takes lunch...etc. Whereas if the car is in my garage I can work on it for an hour or so whenever it's convenient and go do something else productive....or make a pot of coffee and just stay up some night to do the whole thing. I waste no time waiting on anybody else.
There are no "ID markings on the springs". The Honda service bulletin 11-010 (step 7) instructs them to look for the rocker arm assembly date of manufacture, marked on the rocker arm bridge casting. Prior to 11/20/2009, replace the LMS. After production number 215 on that date, LMS are okay so just reassemble and readjust the valve clearances. I bought my car in June 2009 so I know its LMS need to be replaced.
Hey, I use Mobil 1 also.
geo
#356
10-05-2011, 07:27 AM
I know there's already a long, long thread about the lost motion spring recall, but I want to post some issues in a new thread so they get some visibility. Accessing the valvetrain on the Fit requires removing the black plastic cowling at the base of the windshield, as well as the wipers. We had the recall work done on both of our '09 Fits yesterday, and both have issues with that cowl. I'm posting so others can take a close look at their Fits to ensure you don't have similar issues.
The #1 issue is that the cowl consists of an upper and lower half that appears to snap together with clips molded into the upper part. The first picture shows that one of our Fits now has all of these clips broken and there's a gap between the upper and lower halves of the cowl. That cowl is also the airbox where outside air is drawn in for A/C and ventilation, so the gap means some air from the engine compartment will now get pulled in too (not good!). The second picture shows the other Fit with the clips intact and no gap. There are more clips not shown in the photo. Our "bad" Fit has all clips broken, the "good" one has two broken.
Good Clips:
Issue #2 is that the plastic trim piece at each corner at the base of the windshield is now scratched up on the "good" Fit. The scratches are actually worse than the photo makes them look. There are also some white stains in the photo - that's just car polish residue.
Issue #3 is that a plastic push-button fastener was missing on the "good" Fit. These fasteners have been mentioned in the other recall thread. I actually took a few pictures before the work was done (I never expected I would need them....), so here's a picture of the fastener in question. There's one on each side of the car. I don't have a photo showing the hole with the missing fastener.
The last issue, also mentioned in the other thread is that the wipers were positioned at slightly different angles after the recall work. Ours were too and I fixed those myself.
I've already contacted the dealer to arrange to get things corrected, and we'll see how that goes. But an equally big concern is that if they did such a poor job on the items I can see, who knows about the quality of the parts of the job I can't see. I can say that the "good" Fit has had a very, very slightly noisy valvetrain since new (it only has 12K miles now), and it's now quieter. I haven't driven the other Fit yet.
I hope these photos will help others know about some things to look for.
(Yes, those are kayaks and windsurfer masts in the first photo, along with a long pole saw made from a windsurfer mast - gotta have toys!)
UPDATE 04/07/2011: The replacement cowls for both Fits came in a few days ago, and we dropped off the Fits at the dealer this evening to have them installed. While there, my wife mentioned that her windshield wiper had been rattling. I checked the wiper pivot point on the drivers side, and it turns out that the whole wiper assembly (motor, arms, linkages, both wipers) seems to be floating around loose. Something wasn't bolted down inside the cowl. Checking the second Fit, everything was tight. So this is yet another problem to be watchful for. FYI, the Fit with the loose wiper assembly is the one with the more badly hacked up cowl. Whoever re-assembled this cowl after the LMS work must have really had his/her mind on something else.
UPDATE 04/09/2011: We picked up the two cars with new cowls yesterday afternoon. Everything looks and works great based on initial inspection. One of the Fits had developed a very, very slight tick-tick sound when running for the first minute or so after a cold start. I asked the dealer to note it and have a trusted tech give it a listen after they had let the car sit overnight. I didn't push for or demand a valve adjustment, but I think the service manager could easily sense that I was a lot more concerned about being able to trust the valve work over the long haul than I was with the visible cowl issues. Anyway, he chose to have his "best tech" do a valve adjustment on both cars and the service write-ups show 1.6 and 1.9 hours for valve adjustment on the two Fits. Both cars sound good, but final judgment will be after the engines have gone through several heat/cool cycles.
Through this process, I've been much more concerned about having confidence in the engine work than the plastic. However, the cowl pieces now show that someone took care to do the job right. The plastic pieces line up nicely and everything is clean and new looking (no car wash though - these Fits only get hand washed). Based on that, plus the dealer redoing the valve adjustment, I no longer have a lingering doubt that the engine work was as much of a hack job as the original cowls and wipers.
This shouldn't have happened in the first place, but I'm happy with the way the service manager handled the issue.
UPDATE 04/09/2011, later that same day....
It's car washing day which led to finding one more thing to watch for. When you open the hood, there are four black rubber bumpers that the hood should rest on when its closed (they look like upside-down rubber stoppers for a flask). I discovered one of those was missing, probably knocked loose by the service tech leaning over the front of the car. Fortunately, it was lying in a recess in the upper grill housing so I could just press it back in place.
In this photo, the bumpers are circled. The one closest to the square was lying in the square:
The #1 issue is that the cowl consists of an upper and lower half that appears to snap together with clips molded into the upper part. The first picture shows that one of our Fits now has all of these clips broken and there's a gap between the upper and lower halves of the cowl. That cowl is also the airbox where outside air is drawn in for A/C and ventilation, so the gap means some air from the engine compartment will now get pulled in too (not good!). The second picture shows the other Fit with the clips intact and no gap. There are more clips not shown in the photo. Our "bad" Fit has all clips broken, the "good" one has two broken.
Good Clips:
Issue #2 is that the plastic trim piece at each corner at the base of the windshield is now scratched up on the "good" Fit. The scratches are actually worse than the photo makes them look. There are also some white stains in the photo - that's just car polish residue.
Issue #3 is that a plastic push-button fastener was missing on the "good" Fit. These fasteners have been mentioned in the other recall thread. I actually took a few pictures before the work was done (I never expected I would need them....), so here's a picture of the fastener in question. There's one on each side of the car. I don't have a photo showing the hole with the missing fastener.
The last issue, also mentioned in the other thread is that the wipers were positioned at slightly different angles after the recall work. Ours were too and I fixed those myself.
I've already contacted the dealer to arrange to get things corrected, and we'll see how that goes. But an equally big concern is that if they did such a poor job on the items I can see, who knows about the quality of the parts of the job I can't see. I can say that the "good" Fit has had a very, very slightly noisy valvetrain since new (it only has 12K miles now), and it's now quieter. I haven't driven the other Fit yet.
I hope these photos will help others know about some things to look for.
(Yes, those are kayaks and windsurfer masts in the first photo, along with a long pole saw made from a windsurfer mast - gotta have toys!)
UPDATE 04/07/2011: The replacement cowls for both Fits came in a few days ago, and we dropped off the Fits at the dealer this evening to have them installed. While there, my wife mentioned that her windshield wiper had been rattling. I checked the wiper pivot point on the drivers side, and it turns out that the whole wiper assembly (motor, arms, linkages, both wipers) seems to be floating around loose. Something wasn't bolted down inside the cowl. Checking the second Fit, everything was tight. So this is yet another problem to be watchful for. FYI, the Fit with the loose wiper assembly is the one with the more badly hacked up cowl. Whoever re-assembled this cowl after the LMS work must have really had his/her mind on something else.
UPDATE 04/09/2011: We picked up the two cars with new cowls yesterday afternoon. Everything looks and works great based on initial inspection. One of the Fits had developed a very, very slight tick-tick sound when running for the first minute or so after a cold start. I asked the dealer to note it and have a trusted tech give it a listen after they had let the car sit overnight. I didn't push for or demand a valve adjustment, but I think the service manager could easily sense that I was a lot more concerned about being able to trust the valve work over the long haul than I was with the visible cowl issues. Anyway, he chose to have his "best tech" do a valve adjustment on both cars and the service write-ups show 1.6 and 1.9 hours for valve adjustment on the two Fits. Both cars sound good, but final judgment will be after the engines have gone through several heat/cool cycles.
Through this process, I've been much more concerned about having confidence in the engine work than the plastic. However, the cowl pieces now show that someone took care to do the job right. The plastic pieces line up nicely and everything is clean and new looking (no car wash though - these Fits only get hand washed). Based on that, plus the dealer redoing the valve adjustment, I no longer have a lingering doubt that the engine work was as much of a hack job as the original cowls and wipers.
This shouldn't have happened in the first place, but I'm happy with the way the service manager handled the issue.
UPDATE 04/09/2011, later that same day....
It's car washing day which led to finding one more thing to watch for. When you open the hood, there are four black rubber bumpers that the hood should rest on when its closed (they look like upside-down rubber stoppers for a flask). I discovered one of those was missing, probably knocked loose by the service tech leaning over the front of the car. Fortunately, it was lying in a recess in the upper grill housing so I could just press it back in place.
In this photo, the bumpers are circled. The one closest to the square was lying in the square:
#357
10-05-2011, 08:13 AM
Your information was very informative, unfortunately I read it too late as today I collected my Honda Jazz after the "slow motion valves" were replaced only to find that they have broken two of the clips as in your case. Tomorrow it's going back, it will be interesting to hear what they have to say. I am very particular with any car I own and the job has to be done right especially from a main dealer. !
The one good thing about my getting a new cowl and end pieces is that I put 303 UV protectant on those as soon as I got the car back, and they have stayed a nice, deeper black than the originals. Apparently, new car plastic has already been exposed to enough weather and UV to make it a bit less black than when it came out of the mold.
#358
10-05-2011, 11:55 AM
dang... mine came out just as good as it looked going in. 
no issue other than it takes a split second longer to turn over at cold start, but it doesnt bother me.
i dont recall hearing any clicks/ticking either when i recently did an oil change...
no issue other than it takes a split second longer to turn over at cold start, but it doesnt bother me.i dont recall hearing any clicks/ticking either when i recently did an oil change...
#359
10-05-2011, 10:23 PM
Started my car from cold this morning and thankfully no ticking which was a relief. 20 minutes later arrived at Honda and explained the problem to the "service engineer " After taking a look he quickly said that he would order a new cowling and would claim under the warranty. He didn't really want to hear about the problems of air leaking from the engine into the cabin. I just hope they can install the new one without braking the clips.
The interesting part is that I had a look at another jazz in the workshop and guess what.....two of the plastic clips were also broken so it seems that this is a common problem when replacing the springs. Now this has been pointed out, I hope that other owners will not have the same problem. Thanks again for the original post highlighting this subject.
The interesting part is that I had a look at another jazz in the workshop and guess what.....two of the plastic clips were also broken so it seems that this is a common problem when replacing the springs. Now this has been pointed out, I hope that other owners will not have the same problem. Thanks again for the original post highlighting this subject.
#360
10-05-2011, 10:23 PM
Started my car from cold this morning and thankfully no ticking which was a relief. 20 minutes later arrived at Honda and explained the problem to the "service engineer " After taking a look he quickly said that he would order a new cowling and would claim under the warranty. He didn't really want to hear about the problems of air leaking from the engine into the cabin. I just hope they can install the new one without braking the clips.
The interesting part is that I had a look at another jazz in the workshop and guess what.....two of the plastic clips were also broken so it seems that this is a common problem when replacing the springs. Now this has been pointed out, I hope that other owners will not have the same problem. Thanks again for the original post highlighting this subject.
The interesting part is that I had a look at another jazz in the workshop and guess what.....two of the plastic clips were also broken so it seems that this is a common problem when replacing the springs. Now this has been pointed out, I hope that other owners will not have the same problem. Thanks again for the original post highlighting this subject.