Have you EVER had any type of adjustable shock on your car? Single, double, quad, remote res or whatever?

If not, all the theories in the world wont explain to you the difference in "ride quality," as this is a PURELY SUBJECTIVE term.

To me, 8K/10K springs on mono tube shortened shocks has harsh but excellent ride quality. I'm sure that has something to do with the amazingly huge increases in cornering ability and my previous cars being OLD or BIG 4x4 trucks.

Obviously this is not your definition.

We haven't even begun to discuss how alignment specs can dramatically effect "ride quality" either (see Toe.)

As this is the case, we will not agree on a forum over the internet.

OP: If you want a set it and forget it item, Bilstiens will work, but so will T1R Basics at 1/3rd the price. A&J Racing have a solid reputation in our community, have been around since well before the GD came out in the US and will stand behind their warranty no problem. They as well as Type One Racing have been one of the ONLY vendors to continually bring parts to market for the Fit community.

The Koni setup is obviously my preferred choice, with the full amount of flexibility provided that should in my opinion be available from a coil over setup. The GE platform is significantly stiffer than a GD which is why the spring rates are SO much softer from the factory. IF a damper is sufficiently matched to a higher spring rate, then there will be little to change in "ride quality" regardless of the rates.

To completely confuse everyone even further, don't forget that Koni has begun development of a STR.T or "Orange" fixed damping performance shock for the GE. They are supposedly fixed at roughly the "softest" setting from a Koni Yellow. I plan to run these upfront and something from Chris at Redshift that is single adjust in the rear of my GF's GE. AND stay on the Swift lowering springs. Nothing can "do it all," but this should have comfort, adjustable damping where it actually matters in a FWD platform, and provide the increase in performance SHE want's as well as quicker times when she occasionally does AutoX.

 

Here we are talking about Shocks NOT alignment or other factor.
If the T1R (or Bilstein) is more comfortable from the beginning compare to Koni,
then with the correct alignment it will became MORE COMFORTABLE
then the Koni will ever be.

The fact is SPRING RATE NUMBER DON'T Lie,
and it is THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT Factor that effect ride quality.

You are tracking your car, and you had posted how good is your time on track, but in order to achieve such a good time like yours,
you need this Koni spec,
but other on the street will not be able to achieve what they want if
they use YOUR SPEC.

We are here as consultant to the thread starter,
so we had to ask what is the thread starter goal for his car.
He stated he is NOT for track so most likely the Koni will be either too hard for him or most likely he will not need the adjustabilty of the Koni.

Why are you so against Bilstein? On most of the thread about Koni, you always suggest that Bilstein is NOT the correct choice.
Even on this thread you had to point out about tie lock which had nothing to do with the performance of the shock,
and you know very well that the MOST EXPENSIVE racing shock do not have the bracket too and you had to use
either tie lock and make your own bracket.

if you then want to compare cosmetic (like that tie lock things),
why don't you post the picture of Bilstein and Koni front strut side by side here and ask people which one
is MORE BEAUTIFUL cosmetically.

The starter of this thread already stated that he might want to buy Bilstein or Koni,
that mean he had the budget to buy Bilstein (or Koni).

I mean you keep telling the thread starter to just buy T1R because it is cheaper and the vendor support this community,
I understand that AJ Racing is a good support for this community,
but right now we are writing here as consultant representing the interest of the thread starter and NOT the interest of any vendor.

and yes, I do have an adjustable Koni suspension long time ago.
It was for my Mercedes Benz E500 W124 back in 1995. and Yes I am OLD...
I bought them from Renntech, and I remember that it have a single adjuster on top of the front shocks.
I adjust it to the hardest setting so when I brake the car do not nose dive at all, and ride very stiff, but that suspension came with progressive spring.
I also had tuned several Single (non Ohlins) and Dual Adjustable Ohlins for some racing motorcycle in the past and that is how I know the different between rebound, compression and also the need for preload not to mention ride height of of the front fork and rear shocks on motorcycle.
I used to own "small" Motorcycle racing team back in my country.

 

Let's compare
which one is more BEAUTIFUL,

Bilstein with Tie Lock for the brake sensor cable:


or Koni with have built in bracket for the tie lock:



Yes,
I know there are many beautiful suspension that cost less than either Bilstein or Koni,
but since you had to point out that Bilstein had that ugly tie lock,
well let's see how the reader of this thread think about the OVERALL LOOKS of both Bilstein and Koni.

 

That is AWESOME. My background even before cars was scooters and bikes (mostly 2 stroke.) I've got a '77 Honda CB400F project on hold since I can't decide if I want to run cartridge emulators in the front forks or just convert it to inverted cartridge forks off a more modern sport bike.

I only refer to my setup to not just show my racing, stiff spring/adjust-ability bias, and experience in tuning this chassis.

I brought up alignment because no matter what suspension setup, as you said, "with the correct alignment it will became MORE COMFORTABLE." I just want to impress that if it's off, it will greatly effect ride as well and no damping changing or springs will fix a poor alignment.

My reason for suggesting the specific coil and vendor is 2 fold.

One, if we don't support vendors like A&J Racing, they will STOP bringing additional products to market. In fact they already had, this is them seeing a resurgence in interest in the Fiot and attempting to bring a product BACK.

Two, just because someone has the budget to afford something $$$$ does not mean they HAVE to spend it ALL on that. If you can get something that is quality and meets your need for less in one area, then why not go that route and apply the same total from the initial budget into other areas as well like more performance minded tires and lighter than OE rims? This way you get the most "bang for your buck" and can effect several other areas of the car that will contribute to ride characteristics AND cornering ability.

 

Beauty is also subjective....

Might as well add the T1R coils from A&J into the comparison if your going off "looks"



For me, the zip tie issue has ZERO to do with cosmetics, but again, is a cost cutting decision made on be half of the manufacturer which I feel is in poor taste considering the over all cost of the component.

 

Let's compare prices:
Here is what AJ Racing just posted on their NEW LOWERED Price T1R:
Hey Everyone,

We had a highly successful run for the T1R Fit Basic coilovers, so we'd like to extend the offer, and maybe bring you guys another GB.
Feel free to chime in for those interested. We need a minimum of 10 people interested before we collect deposits.
Retail price is, $899 CAD plus shipping (approx. $856 USD), but we are aiming for, $685 CAD (Approx. $652 USD) plus shipping for the GB price. This is based on current exchange rate. For most accurate exchange rate calculations, please contact your bank.

So to my understanding, in the past T1R sell retail for $856 but now they can sell it for just $652.
That show a GREAT MARGIN of PROFIT enjoyed in the PAST !
if they still sell at $856, they will be in direct (or close) competition with Bilstein or like with Tein and Buddy Club N+,
so in order to be more competitive they are forced to lower the price now.
and at $652, I totally agree that T1R is VERY ATTRACTIVELY Priced.

Bilstein at TireRack currently sold for just $1,103 at Tire Rack (Cheapest price I could find now,
but if anybody know vendor that offer cheaper price for Bilstein, please let me know so I can buy from that vendor).
https://www.tirerack.com/suspension/...oModClar=Sport

so the price of the NEW LOWERED PRICE T1R is not 1/3 of Bilstein but a bit more than 1/2

The Koni price... $1,369 (on sale).

and for availability,
Bilstein is ready stock now,
Koni, I heard they had 5 in stock. If it had sold you need to wait for quite a while.
T1R, you had to wait too.

Bilstein, Made In Germany
Koni, mixed of part made in Holland (if it is still came from Holland) and mixed of US made part
T1R, I don't know where they make their suspension from, but at that price
is must be from Asia, which is nothing wrong because Asia do make good product too.

again another fact based on current situation of availability and facts.

 

TPC, I had the utmost respect for you.
You had help me pointed out about Fit particular suspension in the past,
and I was BLANK about Fit (or FWD car suspension tuning), so Thank You for that.
and you also race your car, and with that I respect you.
Please don't be upset with my debate with you on this subject,
and if I say something that might offend you, I want to apologize.

and on this particular post that you post above and I quote here,
I totally agree with you.

 

On this one I also agree with you totally
that the T1R had even more beautiful finish compare to Bilstein (or Koni).

but again they said the beauty is in the inside,

and with that,
The Koni even tough I think it looks less attractive than both Bilstein and T1R (OUTSIDE LOOKS)
but INSIDE, the Koni had the HIGHEST PERFORMANCE POTENTIAL compare to either Bilstein or T1R.

but still that HIGH PERFORMANCE POTENTIAL of a Koni came with the sacrifice of comfort
and Bilstein would surely be more comfortable then Koni.

I think you can agree with me on this right?

so from my point of view, The Koni kit from Chris represent the BEST BANG FOR THE BUCK currently available for people who track their car.

but for strict street use,
I think Bilstein is more suitable then Koni especially for the interest of this tread starter.
on this one, I think we still disagree,
and I think that is what we had right now.

Thank You again TPC for all the information you had post and help me in the past regarding Fit suspension set up.
I really appreciate your help.

and if someday I "feel young" again and suddenly want to track my car,
please kindly help me with the suspension setup for my Honda Fit

 

No offence taken at all!!!

I realized at some point yesterday that I was getting "butt hurt" over things said on the internet

I try not to let myself become that type of person!!!

I actually agree 100%.

OVERALL, Bilstien's will will have a a higher "Comfort" potential than the Koni.

I still think that Comfort potential of the Koni is not too far off once dialed in, but if the OP has no need or interest in an adjustable system the point is moot.

If we still disagree on anything its that $ to "Comfort Potential," you have to go with the Bilstien's... I feel that the T1R Basic coils are another viable option for comfort at a lower price

 

Nah, man..... all's good.. you guys kept a respectable debate. Great info in here from all sides.

 

So we can agree that spring rates along with shock pairing determines comfort? It is not dictated by spring rate only.

What "comfort" is up to the user.

I can say that stiffer springs with good dampers is more comfortable than, say, lower rate lowering springs with stock shocks, even progressive rate springs.

Why bother making progressive rate springs for a coilover? For performance? Progressive springs are inherently bad for performance. So who is this marketed toward? Mainly for looks? But it doesn't give you much height range...

It just seems like a very confused setup.

So it's $1200 when all is said and done for these Bilsteins... why not just go with a good lowering spring and shock combo (when shocks finally come out haha) for a lot less?

 

Like I said IF she wanted to be lower than she is now on Swift springs, I would TOTALLY go with the T1R coils. Luckily she she's happy and still occasionally scrapes so wont go any lower

 

And this is why i've been bitching and complaining for the last year about no performance shock options for GE. I don't want to go with the available coilovers for comfort reasons, and I don't want to drop $1200 for a confused Bilstein setup that offers adjustable rebound and compression and then throws progressive rate springs at you out of nowhere and doesn't allow you to go that low. It's like a businessman dressed up as a gangster and I just can't take it seriously.

 

As much as your visual amuses me, poit of clarity: the Bilstiens are NOT rebound OR compression adjustable. They are fixed...

 

The $1,103 Bilstein do NOT have rebound or compression adjustment,
it is a FIXED rate shocks.
so in this matter, again you are CORRECT that the Koni is a better value for money since Koni do offer Rebound adjustment.

but Bilstein used Progressive rate spring on this kit because this kit cater to people who used their car on the street.

as I point out the Bilstein Progressive Spring rate at it's INITIAL MINIMUM Soft rate are already much harder then factory stock spring
and even harder than SWIFT Spring.

so at the beginning of its movement, the Bilstein spring itself already offer more stiff ride compare to SWIFT or stock springs.

but as the car lean more, the Bilstein spring rate will go up even higher
to stop the car from leaning too much.
but yes, it do offer some leaning at the beginning more than Koni
but this mean it allow more comfort than Koni.

Bilstein kit is for the people who want to go lower,
and want their ride to be stiffer and more stable for street application,
yet they are NOT ready for track kind of stiffness.

The only drawback from Bilstein Progressive spring is their lack of linearity compare to linear springs.

Also they way they make the height adjustment make them limited
in lowering range because it you lower it too much it will make
the shock piston do not have enough movement (not optimal).

but this do NOT mean Bilstein are confuse,
This Bilstein kit is NOT confuse but FOCUS for street application and people who used it more on the street.

Koni kit is NOT confuse too but FOCUS "MORE" for higher performance application than Bilstein kit could achieve.

Still as much comfort the Bilstein had, it is still NOT as comfortable
as the stock shock spring can be.

Bilstein will have harder ride then stock shocks/spring.
and that mean Bilstein will also had better performance than stock shock spring.

The easier method to measure Ultimate performance is to time them on the track.

If we install stock shock spring and used in on track it will have the slowest time. I am pretty sure about this.

If we install Bilstein kit and used it on smooth track, it will have better time then the stock one but will not be as fast as the Koni set up because here we are driving on the absolute limit.

if we install Koni kit and used in on smooth track, it will have the highest
performance because it is stiffer and had rebound adjustment to fine tune it.

But on real road with lot's of bump, I think the Bilstein would be as fast (or even faster) then the Koni, because that initial softness of the progressive spring from Bilstein would allow the initial bump to be
absorbed well and the car stay stable while the harder spring rate of the
Koni (with the light weight of our Fit) would make it easier to skip over bump (read the tyre fly and lose contact for a few second after hitting the bump). and despite of Bilstein softer then Koni, it is still stiff enough
for good handling on the street.
but of course racing on street would be illegal

Some times Factory Driver prefer to let the adjustable suspension on car like Porsche/Ferrari at medium hardness if they drive the car on bumpy street style track like Nurburgring. They avoid Full Race mode.
so on the street I think the Bilstein will have a chance to be equal or to win against this particular Koni set up.

but yes, if you go to real track with smooth road, the harder spring rate of
the Koni would sure make the car faster.

The buyer who want to use it for street use most likely will prefer
Bilstein Progressive spring and that is why Progressive spring are selling well because there is a need for that kind of spring on the market.

 

WHAT? The plot thickens...

Why in the world would I pay $1200 for a glorified spring and shock setup? If you got lowering springs and shocks (the non-adjustable Konis that aren't yet out) it'd be similar for a lot less money? Most of the aftermarket springs available for the Fit have similar rates to those Bilstein springs.

I understand your point about "real life situations" and progressive springs Alpina, most of the setups i've put together were with canyons, parking lots, streets and freeway clovers in mind, not racetracks (never stopped me from going anyway though). I totally understand your point here. I will say in the end I always found lower rate linear springs with adjustable shocks to be superior performers without sacrificing much comfort after trying progressive spring and shock combos.

Thanks for debate

In the end, shocks shouldn't need to be adjusted much, just when you change spring rates, so the fact the Bilsteins aren't adjustable is not in itself BAD and it makes sense if they're using progressive springs. At this point I just don't understand the cost I guess?

 

The cost...
well it's made in germany so the labor cost more,
it is a big company so their overhead is more,
they had big marketing and race sponsorship and it cost money,

and the Bilstein brand it self give some "extra cachet" and it cost more hahaha

you know like why buy Louis Vuitton and you can buy... hmmm whatever
brand that cost much less...

yeah,... the T1-R with their current price is really a good value for money,

but for some people (and I am as guilty in this situation),
the brand of Bilstein is what make me prefer it against T1-R
you know, I am such a POSER hahaha

I really was thinking of buying Koni and Ohlins before decided on Bilstein,
but as you know, I don't think I would be ready for Koni stiffness and this point in time and I don't think I am ready for the Ohlins price this time hahaha

but I am NOT ready for using T1R brand also at this time hahaha...

Actually, I already thinking of putting a Bilstein sticker on my side front fender after I buy and install the Bilstein...

you know just for looks and a bit of show off... I mean well...
yeah... I am just a POSER

 

well i'm glad we could get to the bottom of it.

I'm must messing with ya, I know some people prefer things like this (the finer things!) and there's nothing wrong with that at all.

It's rare we get debates that aren't related to fuel or oil on here (or are civilized)