slow speed driving stumble?
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Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 76
From: Snow Hill, MD
Well she definitely has a cold stumble issue. When I take off in the morning I would swear my tires are flat spotted! Cause that's exactly what it sounds like! If I get rpm's above 3k it goes away. I was blaming it on the rough roads and 35psi tire pressure. Now that I lowered tire pressure and she's super smooth there is something really strange going on? Once warmed up it still stumbles but the flat spot tire syndrome goes away. Any new car shouldn't do this and revving to 3k every time you drive it is not an acceptable answer to the problem! Come on! A brand new car! And a honda at that! Going back to dealership! And I hope more of you guys do to!
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Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,116
From: Hawaii: relocated to Western Canada Sept, 2015
Unacceptable? DITTO here.
Let's see if the dealer can identify the culprit. Here's hoping it a simple issue to switch in/out (e.g. like an ECU).
Don't give up if they give you lame excuses. Be persistant and additionally suggest sending a PM to HondaCustService with the issue, background details plus your VIN.
With barely any cold weather in my locale, no stumbles with 2k on the odo.
power band is between 3 and 4000 rpms. If you shift any lower you're not allowing the engine to do its job.
Look at a Honda automatic transmission. You can hear the engine gear up around 3-4000 rpms, so why would standard be any different?
Like you said, there's no problem when you shift at 3000.....so why not continue to do so?
Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 334
From: Florida, USA
This is the exact issue I was writing about here: M/T Shakey Second Gear.
I messaged and spoke to Johnathan on the phone. He said he would contact the dealer and let him know what the problem was, and that they would get me a loaner car for me when I drop it off. My dealership doesn't offer loaners, to which he said they would rent a car for me. I told him which dealership I would go to and he said he would talk to them.
I called the dealer the next day; they had no idea about my issue and told me they don't offer loaner cars. I said that corporate told me they would rent them. He said they don't do that and he knew nothing about it.
Anyway, they keep my car and give me a ride home. They had the car 5 hours before calling me and saying they couldn't replicate the issue.... which is a very frustrating answer to an issue that there is no trouble replicating. I go to pick up the car and I took the tech out for a drive. He said I was shifting too low and need to rev higher into the power band. I took a whole day off of work to be told the issue I'd experienced couldn't be replicated and that I just needed to shift higher...
The whole thing was a waste of time. Honda people are car salesmen first and foremost. Jonathan was nice, but when it came to making progress on this issue, he was not effective. I don't think taking it to the dealer is an effective solution. They can never replicate the issue, and they waste as much of your time as they can to fail.
I have 10k on it now and it will still stumble at low rpms in 2nd. My driving style has sort of evolved so that I rev first to 3.5-4k vefore shifting to 2nd, so it often doesn't happen, but if I shift around 2k, it will usually stumble a bit, worse when it's cold but also when warm.
Bassguitarist had some great insight into the issue on the last page of the thread linked above.
I messaged and spoke to Johnathan on the phone. He said he would contact the dealer and let him know what the problem was, and that they would get me a loaner car for me when I drop it off. My dealership doesn't offer loaners, to which he said they would rent a car for me. I told him which dealership I would go to and he said he would talk to them.
I called the dealer the next day; they had no idea about my issue and told me they don't offer loaner cars. I said that corporate told me they would rent them. He said they don't do that and he knew nothing about it.
Anyway, they keep my car and give me a ride home. They had the car 5 hours before calling me and saying they couldn't replicate the issue.... which is a very frustrating answer to an issue that there is no trouble replicating. I go to pick up the car and I took the tech out for a drive. He said I was shifting too low and need to rev higher into the power band. I took a whole day off of work to be told the issue I'd experienced couldn't be replicated and that I just needed to shift higher...
The whole thing was a waste of time. Honda people are car salesmen first and foremost. Jonathan was nice, but when it came to making progress on this issue, he was not effective. I don't think taking it to the dealer is an effective solution. They can never replicate the issue, and they waste as much of your time as they can to fail.
I have 10k on it now and it will still stumble at low rpms in 2nd. My driving style has sort of evolved so that I rev first to 3.5-4k vefore shifting to 2nd, so it often doesn't happen, but if I shift around 2k, it will usually stumble a bit, worse when it's cold but also when warm.
Bassguitarist had some great insight into the issue on the last page of the thread linked above.
This is the exact issue I was writing about here: M/T Shakey Second Gear.
I messaged and spoke to Johnathan on the phone. He said he would contact the dealer and let him know what the problem was, and that they would get me a loaner car for me when I drop it off. My dealership doesn't offer loaners, to which he said they would rent a car for me. I told him which dealership I would go to and he said he would talk to them.
I called the dealer the next day; they had no idea about my issue and told me they don't offer loaner cars. I said that corporate told me they would rent them. He said they don't do that and he knew nothing about it.
Anyway, they keep my car and give me a ride home. They had the car 5 hours before calling me and saying they couldn't replicate the issue.... which is a very frustrating answer to an issue that there is no trouble replicating. I go to pick up the car and I took the tech out for a drive. He said I was shifting too low and need to rev higher into the power band. I took a whole day off of work to be told the issue I'd experienced couldn't be replicated and that I just needed to shift higher...
The whole thing was a waste of time. Honda people are car salesmen first and foremost. Jonathan was nice, but when it came to making progress on this issue, he was not effective. I don't think taking it to the dealer is an effective solution. They can never replicate the issue, and they waste as much of your time as they can to fail.
I have 10k on it now and it will still stumble at low rpms in 2nd. My driving style has sort of evolved so that I rev first to 3.5-4k vefore shifting to 2nd, so it often doesn't happen, but if I shift around 2k, it will usually stumble a bit, worse when it's cold but also when warm.
Bassguitarist had some great insight into the issue on the last page of the thread linked above.
I messaged and spoke to Johnathan on the phone. He said he would contact the dealer and let him know what the problem was, and that they would get me a loaner car for me when I drop it off. My dealership doesn't offer loaners, to which he said they would rent a car for me. I told him which dealership I would go to and he said he would talk to them.
I called the dealer the next day; they had no idea about my issue and told me they don't offer loaner cars. I said that corporate told me they would rent them. He said they don't do that and he knew nothing about it.
Anyway, they keep my car and give me a ride home. They had the car 5 hours before calling me and saying they couldn't replicate the issue.... which is a very frustrating answer to an issue that there is no trouble replicating. I go to pick up the car and I took the tech out for a drive. He said I was shifting too low and need to rev higher into the power band. I took a whole day off of work to be told the issue I'd experienced couldn't be replicated and that I just needed to shift higher...
The whole thing was a waste of time. Honda people are car salesmen first and foremost. Jonathan was nice, but when it came to making progress on this issue, he was not effective. I don't think taking it to the dealer is an effective solution. They can never replicate the issue, and they waste as much of your time as they can to fail.
I have 10k on it now and it will still stumble at low rpms in 2nd. My driving style has sort of evolved so that I rev first to 3.5-4k vefore shifting to 2nd, so it often doesn't happen, but if I shift around 2k, it will usually stumble a bit, worse when it's cold but also when warm.
Bassguitarist had some great insight into the issue on the last page of the thread linked above.
everyones saying the same thing, rev higher because these engines demand it, as do every honda engine.
If you choose to not rev the engine to 3-4k rpm, then youll have these "clunking" problems.
and its not the engine, its the driver.
New Member
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 4
From: Louisville
Trying to shift into a gear from that low of rpm's will bog down almost any engine. Smaller displacement engines especially will need to be revved higher to operate smoothly.
I really do not feel like writing out a long complicated response on mechanical advantage, but I'll at least say this. The car is meant to be driven and will work best with a correct mechanical advantage. Drive it up into the proper rpm range and your issue will disappear. The slower the rotation of the engine, the more torque is needed to move the car and the engine may not be able to produce it at that low of a rotational speed so it will bog down.
I really do not feel like writing out a long complicated response on mechanical advantage, but I'll at least say this. The car is meant to be driven and will work best with a correct mechanical advantage. Drive it up into the proper rpm range and your issue will disappear. The slower the rotation of the engine, the more torque is needed to move the car and the engine may not be able to produce it at that low of a rotational speed so it will bog down.
Thread Starter
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Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 76
From: Snow Hill, MD
Revving the motor to 3k is NOT an answer! It's not the driver. It's not the clutch. It's not the trany. I believe more than likely it is a ecu mapping issue to get 40mpg. Me personally would rather sacrifice 1 or 2 mpg to make the motor run smooth. I am going to try the torque app on a smart phone with the obd2 dongle and see what that will display and make a log of various sensors. And ask dealer to do a similar option.
Thread Starter
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 76
From: Snow Hill, MD
Trying to shift into a gear from that low of rpm's will bog down almost any engine. Smaller displacement engines especially will need to be revved higher to operate smoothly.
I really do not feel like writing out a long complicated response on mechanical advantage, but I'll at least say this. The car is meant to be driven and will work best with a correct mechanical advantage. Drive it up into the proper rpm range and your issue will disappear. The slower the rotation of the engine, the more torque is needed to move the car and the engine may not be able to produce it at that low of a rotational speed so it will bog down.
I really do not feel like writing out a long complicated response on mechanical advantage, but I'll at least say this. The car is meant to be driven and will work best with a correct mechanical advantage. Drive it up into the proper rpm range and your issue will disappear. The slower the rotation of the engine, the more torque is needed to move the car and the engine may not be able to produce it at that low of a rotational speed so it will bog down.
My normal driving habits are driving between 1500 - 2500 rpm's. I didn't get this car to go fast. It is an economy car so I drive it as such.
Someone that spends his life on FitFreak.net
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,116
From: Hawaii: relocated to Western Canada Sept, 2015
Did the same thing during the first 1k. My shift points were largely centered on the eco lights. I mean, Honda put in those green/blue lights for it to be driven economically (supposedly). Don't think they wanted sub-par stumbling performance in that design objective.
I agree that there is something amiss somewhere.
Post what your dealer will find and surely, if they don't, make sure that HondaCustService is involved.
Good luck and await the results!!!
Last edited by ROTTBOY; Dec 23, 2014 at 06:30 PM.
Thread Starter
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Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 76
From: Snow Hill, MD
I got a PM from HondaCustSvc and they replied to this post - https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/3rd-...ew-fit-18.html
And this is what they would like to see and so would I! - "If you having an issue that has not been previously addressed, I implore you to bring the vehicle into the dealership for a diagnosis to verify the issue and have it resolved. If you need further assistance once the dealership diagnoses the vehicle, please contact me via PM with your full name, VIN, mileage and dealer so we can better assist you on resolving your concern. We are for our loyal Honda customers and want to ensure we provide the best service possible in having these issues diagnosed and resolved."
Thank you,
Jonathan
__________________
Social Media Team
Honda Automobile Customer Service
Twitter: @HondaCustSvc
And this is what they would like to see and so would I! - "If you having an issue that has not been previously addressed, I implore you to bring the vehicle into the dealership for a diagnosis to verify the issue and have it resolved. If you need further assistance once the dealership diagnoses the vehicle, please contact me via PM with your full name, VIN, mileage and dealer so we can better assist you on resolving your concern. We are for our loyal Honda customers and want to ensure we provide the best service possible in having these issues diagnosed and resolved."
Thank you,
Jonathan
__________________
Social Media Team
Honda Automobile Customer Service
Twitter: @HondaCustSvc
Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 334
From: Florida, USA
I got a PM from HondaCustSvc and they replied to this post - https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/3rd-...ew-fit-18.html
And this is what they would like to see and so would I! - "If you having an issue that has not been previously addressed, I implore you to bring the vehicle into the dealership for a diagnosis to verify the issue and have it resolved. If you need further assistance once the dealership diagnoses the vehicle, please contact me via PM with your full name, VIN, mileage and dealer so we can better assist you on resolving your concern. We are for our loyal Honda customers and want to ensure we provide the best service possible in having these issues diagnosed and resolved."
Thank you,
Jonathan
__________________
Social Media Team
Honda Automobile Customer Service
Twitter: @HondaCustSvc
And this is what they would like to see and so would I! - "If you having an issue that has not been previously addressed, I implore you to bring the vehicle into the dealership for a diagnosis to verify the issue and have it resolved. If you need further assistance once the dealership diagnoses the vehicle, please contact me via PM with your full name, VIN, mileage and dealer so we can better assist you on resolving your concern. We are for our loyal Honda customers and want to ensure we provide the best service possible in having these issues diagnosed and resolved."
Thank you,
Jonathan
__________________
Social Media Team
Honda Automobile Customer Service
Twitter: @HondaCustSvc
I absolutely relate to feeling like "rev higher" was not a good enough explanation. Through this site I have a tenuous grasp on the source of the issue, and I know others are experiencing it which is oddly reassuring that it isn't a fluke. I kind of lost steam on bringing it to the dealer after going for this and then the bumper replacement a few weeks after. They do not make it convenient.
Thread Starter
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Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 76
From: Snow Hill, MD
Good luck Jim. I hope they are able to shed more light on it for everyone that has experienced this. Like I've said, mine will still do it after 10,000 miles. I notice it less but I've come to drive it differently. I noticed it more in the summer when I had the A/C on and was keeping the revs under 4.5k to break it in, so shifting lower. Once I got past that point, I kind of naturally started revving higher as I got used to the car. It kind of seems like it has gotten better, even when I do shift low, but it isn't gone by any means.
I absolutely relate to feeling like "rev higher" was not a good enough explanation. Through this site I have a tenuous grasp on the source of the issue, and I know others are experiencing it which is oddly reassuring that it isn't a fluke. I kind of lost steam on bringing it to the dealer after going for this and then the bumper replacement a few weeks after. They do not make it convenient.
I absolutely relate to feeling like "rev higher" was not a good enough explanation. Through this site I have a tenuous grasp on the source of the issue, and I know others are experiencing it which is oddly reassuring that it isn't a fluke. I kind of lost steam on bringing it to the dealer after going for this and then the bumper replacement a few weeks after. They do not make it convenient.
Member
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 385
From: SoCal
I have not noticed a stumble as such but I have noticed that due to the power band, torque and gearing the shift points are different from almost any car I've ever driven.
I think the claim that this is an 'economy' car is a bit erroneous. This car has performance and with that thought in mind shift that way and the car responds just fine.
Also, to dispel a myth, you don't get up to speed slowly to save fuel, you have to get up to speed quickly or else you're just wasting gas. By the same token you don't floor it to get up to speed or else you're wasting gas as well.
It's a fine line or a sweet spot that you need to hit. If you check out hypermiling websites they do a great job of explaining it.
So in reality, by your admission of accelerating so slowly you are in fact wasting more fuel that way. Get it going quicker and the engine will respond better with performance.
Hope that helps!
I think the claim that this is an 'economy' car is a bit erroneous. This car has performance and with that thought in mind shift that way and the car responds just fine.
Also, to dispel a myth, you don't get up to speed slowly to save fuel, you have to get up to speed quickly or else you're just wasting gas. By the same token you don't floor it to get up to speed or else you're wasting gas as well.
It's a fine line or a sweet spot that you need to hit. If you check out hypermiling websites they do a great job of explaining it.
So in reality, by your admission of accelerating so slowly you are in fact wasting more fuel that way. Get it going quicker and the engine will respond better with performance.
Hope that helps!
Thread Starter
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 76
From: Snow Hill, MD
I have not noticed a stumble as such but I have noticed that due to the power band, torque and gearing the shift points are different from almost any car I've ever driven.
I think the claim that this is an 'economy' car is a bit erroneous. This car has performance and with that thought in mind shift that way and the car responds just fine.
Also, to dispel a myth, you don't get up to speed slowly to save fuel, you have to get up to speed quickly or else you're just wasting gas. By the same token you don't floor it to get up to speed or else you're wasting gas as well.
It's a fine line or a sweet spot that you need to hit. If you check out hypermiling websites they do a great job of explaining it.
So in reality, by your admission of accelerating so slowly you are in fact wasting more fuel that way. Get it going quicker and the engine will respond better with performance.
Hope that helps!
I think the claim that this is an 'economy' car is a bit erroneous. This car has performance and with that thought in mind shift that way and the car responds just fine.
Also, to dispel a myth, you don't get up to speed slowly to save fuel, you have to get up to speed quickly or else you're just wasting gas. By the same token you don't floor it to get up to speed or else you're wasting gas as well.
It's a fine line or a sweet spot that you need to hit. If you check out hypermiling websites they do a great job of explaining it.
So in reality, by your admission of accelerating so slowly you are in fact wasting more fuel that way. Get it going quicker and the engine will respond better with performance.
Hope that helps!
Member
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,620
From: Connecticut
Jim, here is my reply from the other thread. I'm 99.9999% sure this is the exact issue. Its simply the way a direct injection engine is programmed vs a non DI.
The "hesitation" is due to the DI system adjusting for the ideal air/fuel mix. The ECM goes to a lean burn when there is less demand for the engine. This is not the case when the car first starts as its running open loop. Since the ECM cannot compensate until the O2 sensor warms up it guesses. It makes the most sense to shift at higher RPM's to compensate. At some RPM the ECM knows the engine is being called on for more power and changes the fuel mixture to be ideal. Lower RPMs means less demand/leaner fuel ratio, and when it does not meet the demand for the car the ECM switches to a higher fuel mixture on the fly to obtain the power when you hit the gas harder, thus the "shaky hesitation" This is no glitch or malfunction, its how the ECM manages the engine.
As others have pointed out if you shift at the right points its smooth as any other car. Its a bit more noticeable when the AC is running, and accessories are on drawing more power from the alternator. The ECM senses the extra load and compensates, but its affinity is it wants to stay at a lean burn ratio to save fuel. If it was more liberal set to stay at an ideal fuel mixture when demand is minimal, I don't think we would be getting the fuel mileage it does boast.
I'll drive a manual till my legs fall off, and if manufacturers stop offering manual trannys, then I'll buy an older car that has a manual!
The "hesitation" is due to the DI system adjusting for the ideal air/fuel mix. The ECM goes to a lean burn when there is less demand for the engine. This is not the case when the car first starts as its running open loop. Since the ECM cannot compensate until the O2 sensor warms up it guesses. It makes the most sense to shift at higher RPM's to compensate. At some RPM the ECM knows the engine is being called on for more power and changes the fuel mixture to be ideal. Lower RPMs means less demand/leaner fuel ratio, and when it does not meet the demand for the car the ECM switches to a higher fuel mixture on the fly to obtain the power when you hit the gas harder, thus the "shaky hesitation" This is no glitch or malfunction, its how the ECM manages the engine.
As others have pointed out if you shift at the right points its smooth as any other car. Its a bit more noticeable when the AC is running, and accessories are on drawing more power from the alternator. The ECM senses the extra load and compensates, but its affinity is it wants to stay at a lean burn ratio to save fuel. If it was more liberal set to stay at an ideal fuel mixture when demand is minimal, I don't think we would be getting the fuel mileage it does boast.
I'll drive a manual till my legs fall off, and if manufacturers stop offering manual trannys, then I'll buy an older car that has a manual!
Thread Starter
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 76
From: Snow Hill, MD
Jim, here is my reply from the other thread. I'm 99.9999% sure this is the exact issue. Its simply the way a direct injection engine is programmed vs a non DI.
The "hesitation" is due to the DI system adjusting for the ideal air/fuel mix. The ECM goes to a lean burn when there is less demand for the engine. This is not the case when the car first starts as its running open loop. Since the ECM cannot compensate until the O2 sensor warms up it guesses. It makes the most sense to shift at higher RPM's to compensate. At some RPM the ECM knows the engine is being called on for more power and changes the fuel mixture to be ideal. Lower RPMs means less demand/leaner fuel ratio, and when it does not meet the demand for the car the ECM switches to a higher fuel mixture on the fly to obtain the power when you hit the gas harder, thus the "shaky hesitation" This is no glitch or malfunction, its how the ECM manages the engine.
As others have pointed out if you shift at the right points its smooth as any other car. Its a bit more noticeable when the AC is running, and accessories are on drawing more power from the alternator. The ECM senses the extra load and compensates, but its affinity is it wants to stay at a lean burn ratio to save fuel. If it was more liberal set to stay at an ideal fuel mixture when demand is minimal, I don't think we would be getting the fuel mileage it does boast.
I'll drive a manual till my legs fall off, and if manufacturers stop offering manual trannys, then I'll buy an older car that has a manual!
The "hesitation" is due to the DI system adjusting for the ideal air/fuel mix. The ECM goes to a lean burn when there is less demand for the engine. This is not the case when the car first starts as its running open loop. Since the ECM cannot compensate until the O2 sensor warms up it guesses. It makes the most sense to shift at higher RPM's to compensate. At some RPM the ECM knows the engine is being called on for more power and changes the fuel mixture to be ideal. Lower RPMs means less demand/leaner fuel ratio, and when it does not meet the demand for the car the ECM switches to a higher fuel mixture on the fly to obtain the power when you hit the gas harder, thus the "shaky hesitation" This is no glitch or malfunction, its how the ECM manages the engine.
As others have pointed out if you shift at the right points its smooth as any other car. Its a bit more noticeable when the AC is running, and accessories are on drawing more power from the alternator. The ECM senses the extra load and compensates, but its affinity is it wants to stay at a lean burn ratio to save fuel. If it was more liberal set to stay at an ideal fuel mixture when demand is minimal, I don't think we would be getting the fuel mileage it does boast.
I'll drive a manual till my legs fall off, and if manufacturers stop offering manual trannys, then I'll buy an older car that has a manual!
Member
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 334
From: Florida, USA
That's why I wish you good luck. May Jonathan actually be able to help you and my your dealer actually answer your questions. Personally, I think "take it to the dealer" is faith misplaced... they will waste your time and not tell you anything useful.
Thread Starter
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Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 76
From: Snow Hill, MD
I DID take it to the dealer... that's what I said. Jonathan contacted me, said to call the dealer, promised a loaner car, assured me it was Honda's priority to diagnose, etc. Same as you. I took it to the dealer, they had no loaner car, said they hadn't heard anything about it from corporate, kept the car half the day, "couldn't replicate the issue," and told me to rev higher before shifting. It was a huge PITA and didn't get me a single step closer to knowing why it was happening. I learned more from Basguitarist's post than I did in all the hassle of going to the dealer.
That's why I wish you good luck. May Jonathan actually be able to help you and my your dealer actually answer your questions. Personally, I think "take it to the dealer" is faith misplaced... they will waste your time and not tell you anything useful.
That's why I wish you good luck. May Jonathan actually be able to help you and my your dealer actually answer your questions. Personally, I think "take it to the dealer" is faith misplaced... they will waste your time and not tell you anything useful.
Do you have any cold weather were your at? Last week it was like 30 here boy did she run like sh$t in the lower rpm's till it warmed up! I mean it was like completely different then on warmer days! So maybe I do have a separate issue with mine?
Do we have anyone out there in cold weather climates? Curious how your fit's behave in the cold during first 5-10 min of driving? Do you notice a difference between the 1st 5 min of driving when is cold or warm out? And I mean cold weather like below 30 degrees?
Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 690
From: Tennessee
I used to have a 1995 Volvo 850 with a 5-speed manual transmission that would do the same thing if you let it sit too long without driving it, or if it was really cold. Higher RPM's would cure it, that and a little more warm up time. I never considered it a problem, since I could compensate with my driving technique to overcome the issue.
I did love that car and miss it terribly. I would still have it today, had the fellow in the right lane not decided to make a U-turn, while I was along side of him in the left lane. You don't see many Volvo's from that era without an automatic transmission, and now you don't see any! Volvo does not offer anything but the automatic anymore.
I did love that car and miss it terribly. I would still have it today, had the fellow in the right lane not decided to make a U-turn, while I was along side of him in the left lane. You don't see many Volvo's from that era without an automatic transmission, and now you don't see any! Volvo does not offer anything but the automatic anymore.
Last edited by Vanguard; Dec 25, 2014 at 03:41 AM.
