NIGHTHAWKSI's custom turbo build progress thread
#221
04-07-2009, 01:32 PM
there is definatly no shaft play and no cantact with either housing.
the wastegate was tight...i think. and it was definatly not detonation.
when i took teh turbo off, i did notice that there were a few bolts that were not finger loose, but close to it on the housing and teh exhaust wastegate flange. but since its off now, i am going to have it looked at and tested by a professional. hopefully put it back on making sure everythign is tight and then get tuned.
the wastegate was tight...i think. and it was definatly not detonation.
when i took teh turbo off, i did notice that there were a few bolts that were not finger loose, but close to it on the housing and teh exhaust wastegate flange. but since its off now, i am going to have it looked at and tested by a professional. hopefully put it back on making sure everythign is tight and then get tuned.
#223
04-08-2009, 08:32 AM
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,088
i dont have any pics right now, but i dissasembled my turbo yesterday.
when i took the hot side off, there is a "dog bowl" shaped part that is between the fins and the center housing. well, oil just poured out of that from between the dog bowl and center housing, and there is nothing that was holding the dog bowl in place except the hot side housing. it was just floating around the shaft once the hot side housing was off.
ive never taken apart a turbo before, but for some reason i dont think that is right.
anyone know how to fix this? what is supposed to hold it in place and seal it correctly?
i tired disassemblig ti further, but i couldnt get the nut off the cmopressor side to get teh shaft out. any recomendsations? i put a good amount of force into it, but i didnt want to damage it so i stopped.
when i took the hot side off, there is a "dog bowl" shaped part that is between the fins and the center housing. well, oil just poured out of that from between the dog bowl and center housing, and there is nothing that was holding the dog bowl in place except the hot side housing. it was just floating around the shaft once the hot side housing was off.
ive never taken apart a turbo before, but for some reason i dont think that is right.
anyone know how to fix this? what is supposed to hold it in place and seal it correctly?
i tired disassemblig ti further, but i couldnt get the nut off the cmopressor side to get teh shaft out. any recomendsations? i put a good amount of force into it, but i didnt want to damage it so i stopped.
#224
04-08-2009, 08:45 AM
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,088
i disassembled my turbo yesterday as far as i could until i got stuck on trying to get the shaft out of the center section. any ideas how to do it? i used a vice to hold one end and a wrnech on the other. use da good amount of force, but i was afraid to damage it so i stopped.
upon taking the hot side off, i found oil pouring out from between the "dog bowl" and the center section. now, ive never taken apart a turbo before, but this doesnt seem right. alos, there wa snothign holding the dog bowl in place exhaept for the hot side housing...once i took it off, the dog bowl was just floating around the shaft.
heres a few pics for reference that i took from a DIY turbo rebuild site.
"dog bowl" is the part on the left side of this picture, between the fan and the center housing.
here it is around the shaft: (note..mine is in perfect condition though)
im sure i know the aanser, the "turbo seal" is my problem. i have no idea what a turbo seal is, or where it goes, but i will be doing a rebuild myself on this turbo, so i will be learning.
if some one can give me any ideas/tricks of how to remove the nut off the end of the shaft, i would really appreciate it.
upon taking the hot side off, i found oil pouring out from between the "dog bowl" and the center section. now, ive never taken apart a turbo before, but this doesnt seem right. alos, there wa snothign holding the dog bowl in place exhaept for the hot side housing...once i took it off, the dog bowl was just floating around the shaft.
heres a few pics for reference that i took from a DIY turbo rebuild site.
"dog bowl" is the part on the left side of this picture, between the fan and the center housing.
here it is around the shaft: (note..mine is in perfect condition though)
im sure i know the aanser, the "turbo seal" is my problem. i have no idea what a turbo seal is, or where it goes, but i will be doing a rebuild myself on this turbo, so i will be learning.
if some one can give me any ideas/tricks of how to remove the nut off the end of the shaft, i would really appreciate it.
#225
04-08-2009, 01:41 PM
i disassembled my turbo yesterday as far as i could until i got stuck on trying to get the shaft out of the center section. any ideas how to do it? i used a vice to hold one end and a wrnech on the other. use da good amount of force, but i was afraid to damage it so i stopped.
upon taking the hot side off, i found oil pouring out from between the "dog bowl" and the center section. now, ive never taken apart a turbo before, but this doesnt seem right. alos, there wa snothign holding the dog bowl in place exhaept for the hot side housing...once i took it off, the dog bowl was just floating around the shaft.
heres a few pics for reference that i took from a DIY turbo rebuild site.
"dog bowl" is the part on the left side of this picture, between the fan and the center housing.
here it is around the shaft: (note..mine is in perfect condition though)
im sure i know the aanser, the "turbo seal" is my problem. i have no idea what a turbo seal is, or where it goes, but i will be doing a rebuild myself on this turbo, so i will be learning.
if some one can give me any ideas/tricks of how to remove the nut off the end of the shaft, i would really appreciate it.
upon taking the hot side off, i found oil pouring out from between the "dog bowl" and the center section. now, ive never taken apart a turbo before, but this doesnt seem right. alos, there wa snothign holding the dog bowl in place exhaept for the hot side housing...once i took it off, the dog bowl was just floating around the shaft.
heres a few pics for reference that i took from a DIY turbo rebuild site.
"dog bowl" is the part on the left side of this picture, between the fan and the center housing.
here it is around the shaft: (note..mine is in perfect condition though)
im sure i know the aanser, the "turbo seal" is my problem. i have no idea what a turbo seal is, or where it goes, but i will be doing a rebuild myself on this turbo, so i will be learning.
if some one can give me any ideas/tricks of how to remove the nut off the end of the shaft, i would really appreciate it.
yes the "dog bowl" is supposed to be floating around like that when you take apart the turbo, but when it's assembled the exhaust housing holds it in place.
you now have to rebalance the turbo because you separated the compressor wheel and the turbine wheel. (they come balanced as one unit)
#226
04-08-2009, 03:01 PM
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,088
ummm you shouldnt have taken your turbo apart...
yes the "dog bowl" is supposed to be floating around like that when you take apart the turbo, but when it's assembled the exhaust housing holds it in place.
you now have to rebalance the turbo because you separated the compressor wheel and the turbine wheel. (they come balanced as one unit)
yes the "dog bowl" is supposed to be floating around like that when you take apart the turbo, but when it's assembled the exhaust housing holds it in place.
you now have to rebalance the turbo because you separated the compressor wheel and the turbine wheel. (they come balanced as one unit)
should the dog bowl have been filled with oil? because as soon as i took the exhasut side off, oil started seeping out from between it and the center housing.
#227
04-08-2009, 04:21 PM
The wheels are balanced, I wouldn't worry about reassembling them.
It sounds like your seals might be shot, though, if oil poured out as soon as you loosened the exhaust housing. Turbo oil seals are a lot like piston rings (made out of the same stuff I think). They sit just inside the CHRA, between the housings and the bearings.
Good luck with the rebuild, though. Take more pics! I'm a sucker for turbo porn.
It sounds like your seals might be shot, though, if oil poured out as soon as you loosened the exhaust housing. Turbo oil seals are a lot like piston rings (made out of the same stuff I think). They sit just inside the CHRA, between the housings and the bearings.
Good luck with the rebuild, though. Take more pics! I'm a sucker for turbo porn.
#228
04-08-2009, 05:46 PM
The compressor wheel and the turbine wheels are not balanced individually then assembled on the shaft, they get balanced as one unit. if you look at the nut holding on the turbine wheel, it's always looks like it has been ground down. that's how they balance it.
#229
04-08-2009, 07:55 PM
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,088
i marked both wheels so that i assemble them into teh same positions that they were in. im not worried about the balancing.
#230
04-08-2009, 11:49 PM
STOP! you are wasting your time and going to cause more problems then necessary! just check for axial play(in out) and with the housings installed put a side load against the wheels while rotating. if they rub then your going to need a rebuild. as for the oil issue you have one of 4 issues. one being your oil return size and routing and location into the oil pan(must be above the oil level especially with the older turbos, be 1/2" ID or larger, housing is clocked no more than 15' from vertical, and no extreme angles to the pan) 2. your oil restrictor isn't small enough, 3. to much positive crank case pressure, 4. turbine seal is toast.
#231
04-09-2009, 08:19 AM
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,088
STOP! you are wasting your time and going to cause more problems then necessary! just check for axial play(in out) and with the housings installed put a side load against the wheels while rotating. if they rub then your going to need a rebuild. as for the oil issue you have one of 4 issues. one being your oil return size and routing and location into the oil pan(must be above the oil level especially with the older turbos, be 1/2" ID or larger, housing is clocked no more than 15' from vertical, and no extreme angles to the pan) 2. your oil restrictor isn't small enough, 3. to much positive crank case pressure, 4. turbine seal is toast.
my oil return is 3/4" diameter. plenty large. it does have a section that is about 15* away from horizontal though. however, the large diameter should make up for any flow restriction that may have caused. the return is above the oil line at the pan.
the housing was 90* vertical. definatly clocked correctly.
according to garrett, oil restictors are not necesary with journal bearing turbos.
TurboByGarrett.com - FAQ's
Does my turbo require an oil restrictor?
Oil requirements depend on the turbo's bearing system type. Garrett has two types of bearing systems; traditional journal bearing; and ball bearing.
The journal bearing system in a turbo functions very similarly to the rod or crank bearings in an engine. These bearings require enough oil pressure to keep the components separated by a hydrodynamic film. If the oil pressure is too low, the metal components will come in contact causing premature wear and ultimately failure. If the oil pressure is too high, leakage may occur from the turbocharger seals. With that as background, an oil restrictor is generally not needed for a journal-bearing turbocharger except for those applications with oil-pressure-induced seal leakage. Remember to address all other potential causes of leakage first (e.g., inadequate/improper oil drain out of the turbocharger, excessive crankcase pressure, turbocharger past its useful service life, etc.) and use a restrictor as a last resort. Garrett distributors can tell you the recommended range of acceptable oil pressures for your particular turbo. Restrictor size will always depend on how much oil pressure your engine is generating-there is no single restrictor size suited for all engines.
Ball-bearing turbochargers can benefit from the addition of an oil restrictor, as most engines deliver more pressure than a ball bearing turbo requires. The benefit is seen in improved boost response due to less windage of oil in the bearing. In addition, lower oil flow further reduces the risk of oil leakage compared to journal-bearing turbochargers. Oil pressure entering a ball-bearing turbocharger needs to be between 40 psi and 45 psi at the maximum engine operating speed. For many common passenger vehicle engines, this generally translates into a restrictor with a minimum of 0.040" diameter orifice upstream of the oil inlet on the turbocharger center section. Again, it is imperative that the restrictor be sized according to the oil pressure characteristics of the engine to which the turbo is attached. Always verify that the appropriate oil pressure is reaching the turbo.
The use of an oil restrictor can (but not always) help ensure that you have the proper oil flow/pressure entering the turbocharger, as well as extract the maximum performance.
Oil requirements depend on the turbo's bearing system type. Garrett has two types of bearing systems; traditional journal bearing; and ball bearing.
The journal bearing system in a turbo functions very similarly to the rod or crank bearings in an engine. These bearings require enough oil pressure to keep the components separated by a hydrodynamic film. If the oil pressure is too low, the metal components will come in contact causing premature wear and ultimately failure. If the oil pressure is too high, leakage may occur from the turbocharger seals. With that as background, an oil restrictor is generally not needed for a journal-bearing turbocharger except for those applications with oil-pressure-induced seal leakage. Remember to address all other potential causes of leakage first (e.g., inadequate/improper oil drain out of the turbocharger, excessive crankcase pressure, turbocharger past its useful service life, etc.) and use a restrictor as a last resort. Garrett distributors can tell you the recommended range of acceptable oil pressures for your particular turbo. Restrictor size will always depend on how much oil pressure your engine is generating-there is no single restrictor size suited for all engines.
Ball-bearing turbochargers can benefit from the addition of an oil restrictor, as most engines deliver more pressure than a ball bearing turbo requires. The benefit is seen in improved boost response due to less windage of oil in the bearing. In addition, lower oil flow further reduces the risk of oil leakage compared to journal-bearing turbochargers. Oil pressure entering a ball-bearing turbocharger needs to be between 40 psi and 45 psi at the maximum engine operating speed. For many common passenger vehicle engines, this generally translates into a restrictor with a minimum of 0.040" diameter orifice upstream of the oil inlet on the turbocharger center section. Again, it is imperative that the restrictor be sized according to the oil pressure characteristics of the engine to which the turbo is attached. Always verify that the appropriate oil pressure is reaching the turbo.
The use of an oil restrictor can (but not always) help ensure that you have the proper oil flow/pressure entering the turbocharger, as well as extract the maximum performance.
i have no idea what would casue too much PC pressure. so ill ruel that out.
my guess is the compressor seal is no good. i bought this turbo rebuilt. i have no idea by who. however, when i took the compressor side off, the dog bowl sheild was filled with oil. so i will be either rebuilding the turbo (who knows what else may have been messed up in the rebuild?) or just replacing the seals.
#232
04-10-2009, 10:01 AM
there was no shaft play. in out or side to side. and neither compressor or turbine wheel was touching the housing. there was no binding when rotating it either.
my oil return is 3/4" diameter. plenty large. it does have a section that is about 15* away from horizontal though. however, the large diameter should make up for any flow restriction that may have caused. the return is above the oil line at the pan.
the housing was 90* vertical. definatly clocked correctly.
according to garrett, oil restictors are not necesary with journal bearing turbos.
TurboByGarrett.com - FAQ's
however, if some one that knows what the oil pressure peaks at for the L15, i would like to know.
i have no idea what would casue too much PC pressure. so ill ruel that out.
my guess is the compressor seal is no good. i bought this turbo rebuilt. i have no idea by who. however, when i took the compressor side off, the dog bowl sheild was filled with oil. so i will be either rebuilding the turbo (who knows what else may have been messed up in the rebuild?) or just replacing the seals.
my oil return is 3/4" diameter. plenty large. it does have a section that is about 15* away from horizontal though. however, the large diameter should make up for any flow restriction that may have caused. the return is above the oil line at the pan.
the housing was 90* vertical. definatly clocked correctly.
according to garrett, oil restictors are not necesary with journal bearing turbos.
TurboByGarrett.com - FAQ's
however, if some one that knows what the oil pressure peaks at for the L15, i would like to know.
i have no idea what would casue too much PC pressure. so ill ruel that out.
my guess is the compressor seal is no good. i bought this turbo rebuilt. i have no idea by who. however, when i took the compressor side off, the dog bowl sheild was filled with oil. so i will be either rebuilding the turbo (who knows what else may have been messed up in the rebuild?) or just replacing the seals.
compressor is the aluminum (aka cold) side. I can promise you that honda's need an oil restrictor with a journal bearing turbo unless you want to take care of the misqueto population. I'll have to look up which size orifice worked best I want to say .035 but not positive. I have been doing business with my turbo guy for over 6 years and he told me that some cars will need restrictors and especially the vtec honda's where oil pressure can exceed 80psi warm. as for crank case pressure, these engines weren't designed for forced induction. i'm not saying its going to be a big issue but if/when I ever boost my car i'm going to tap a few fittings in the valve cover to help let it breeth. because once the pcv valve shuts under boost there is absolutely no where for the crank case pressure to go. its a closed loop system. everything else sounds good. not sure where you got your noise from? any signs of rubbing on the turbine wheel? where a peice of weld could have broke off and gotten lodged into the wheel?
#233
04-10-2009, 10:21 AM
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,088
thats the turbine seal compressor is the aluminum (aka cold) side. I can promise you that honda's need an oil restrictor with a journal bearing turbo unless you want to take care of the misqueto population. I'll have to look up which size orifice worked best I want to say .035 but not positive. I have been doing business with my turbo guy for over 6 years and he told me that some cars will need restrictors and especially the vtec honda's where oil pressure can exceed 80psi warm. as for crank case pressure, these engines weren't designed for forced induction. i'm not saying its going to be a big issue but if/when I ever boost my car i'm going to tap a few fittings in the valve cover to help let it breeth. because once the pcv valve shuts under boost there is absolutely no where for the crank case pressure to go. its a closed loop system.
everything else sounds good. not sure where you got your noise from? any signs of rubbing on the turbine wheel? where a peice of weld could have broke off and gotten lodged into the wheel?
compressor is the aluminum (aka cold) side. I can promise you that honda's need an oil restrictor with a journal bearing turbo unless you want to take care of the misqueto population. I'll have to look up which size orifice worked best I want to say .035 but not positive. I have been doing business with my turbo guy for over 6 years and he told me that some cars will need restrictors and especially the vtec honda's where oil pressure can exceed 80psi warm. as for crank case pressure, these engines weren't designed for forced induction. i'm not saying its going to be a big issue but if/when I ever boost my car i'm going to tap a few fittings in the valve cover to help let it breeth. because once the pcv valve shuts under boost there is absolutely no where for the crank case pressure to go. its a closed loop system. everything else sounds good. not sure where you got your noise from? any signs of rubbing on the turbine wheel? where a peice of weld could have broke off and gotten lodged into the wheel?
im running a breather filter on the valve cover, so i dont think its a crankcase pressure problem.
since there is no shaft play and no sign of damage anywhere in the turbo, im starting to think that the noise i heard was the wastegate rattling as it was starting to open. the car started to build boost...only 1psi and i would hear the rattle. makes me think that the wastegate was set to loose and the 1psi was just enough to open it slightly and cause it to rattleagainst the housing.
hopefully i have it installed and running by next weekend. i have a big car show to go to on 5/9, so i really want it to be running reliably by then.
Last edited by NIGHTHAWKSI; 04-10-2009 at 10:26 AM.
#234
04-10-2009, 11:53 PM
cool sounds like your going in the right direction. if the turbo was rebuilt I wouldn't mess with the turbine seal ring. it takes quite abit to kill one. a few miles with excessive oil pressure won't hurt it. I wouldn't dissassemble the chra if you don't have to. it is very easy to tweak the shaft with improper tq load on the shaft. and the balance issue can cause reliability issues. they are typically balanced seperatly then assembled and balanced as an assembly.
#235
04-11-2009, 08:23 PM
Good to hear you're still working through this. The L15 actually makes quite a bit more than 50psi at 3k (mine does anyway). try 65psi by 3k, and holding 75 to redline.
Cold start pressures can easily peak over 100psi. Ever wonder why Honda motors last forever? It's because they oil the sh!t out of them.
Cold start pressures can easily peak over 100psi. Ever wonder why Honda motors last forever? It's because they oil the sh!t out of them.
#237
04-13-2009, 08:42 AM
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,088
i cant really promote it since its directed towards 06+ civics. only reason i know about it and am going is cause i used to have an 06 SI and im friends with the organizer. but its about 3 hours upstate NY from me.
#238
04-13-2009, 08:44 AM
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,088
Good to hear you're still working through this. The L15 actually makes quite a bit more than 50psi at 3k (mine does anyway). try 65psi by 3k, and holding 75 to redline.
Cold start pressures can easily peak over 100psi. Ever wonder why Honda motors last forever? It's because they oil the sh!t out of them.
Cold start pressures can easily peak over 100psi. Ever wonder why Honda motors last forever? It's because they oil the sh!t out of them.
im just waiting on new seals in the mail to put the turbo back together. i am going to test my wastegate before i install and adjust it to 5psi, and when my new .060 restrictor arrives on friday i will be putting the turbo back in. im goign to call a shop today adn hopefully get an appointment for saturday to get tuned.
#239
04-13-2009, 08:52 PM
most def on the restrictor lol. i think im my 240 i was running a .035 or so restrictor on a gt28r (good ol ball bearing). good to hear u didnt hit a dead end and still have some things to go on. keep us posted.
#240
04-14-2009, 08:01 AM
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Long Island
Posts: 1,088
got a tuning apointment on saturday.
i shoudl be getting my new oil seal today, hopefully install it tonight and reassemble the turbo. if i still have time i will set the wastegate to about 5-6 PSI using my compressor and regulator.
restrictor is scheduled to be delivered on friday, so i will install the turbo that night. if all goes well it shoud only take 3 hours to reinstall.
then off to teh tuner.
i have pictures of my turbo disassembled, once the car is done i will post them up. kinda busy now.
i shoudl be getting my new oil seal today, hopefully install it tonight and reassemble the turbo. if i still have time i will set the wastegate to about 5-6 PSI using my compressor and regulator.
restrictor is scheduled to be delivered on friday, so i will install the turbo that night. if all goes well it shoud only take 3 hours to reinstall.
then off to teh tuner.
i have pictures of my turbo disassembled, once the car is done i will post them up. kinda busy now.