Exactly, IC engines typically operate in the 20-35% thermal efficiency range.

Now counter-intuitive for some, but HCCI engines can achieve better rates of return. (Diesel, or compression ignition in general)

The giant 14 cylinder, >5,000,000 lb-ft torque producing Wartsila ship engines (two stroke turbo-diesels) which operate at only 109rpm can approach 45-48% TE. Take that Prius!

Or the new VW Polo TDI in Europe turning out ~70mpg combined, which also shames the Prius.

I am designing a go kart for myself on a 3cyl kubota turbo diesel and a generator head. The plan is to mate traction motors as the wheel hubs and use them to drive and inductive eddy current braking storing the energy regained in an 8Far capacitor.

I agree, corn based ethanol is probably not the ideal route, but algae and organic diesels and methane may help us close the gap till we figure out more efficient batteries and capacitors. Lithium-Oxygen batteries seem to be the new fad in super technerd circles. Very light, with quick recharge and a high energy density.

There are also new nano-tech solar cells they are experimenting with using blended up jellyfish that are showing promise. I believe a norweigian team has been using some sort of north american jelly fish population to this effect.

But forced induction, turbo especially, and ethanol blends go together like peanut butter and jelly. The torque they produce throughout the rev range compared to gas is great.

Not only does ethanol bring its own extra oxygen, but because there is extra fuel required per unit volume of air compared to gas AFR scales, you get more exhaust gas volume.

So even though you are running colder gasses, you have more force exerted by friction on the turbine because there is just more gas volume to pass through it with the bonus of colder EGTs and combustion chambers.. However be prepared to beef up your fuel system (Pumps/Injector/Regulator/Filter/Lines) to deal with the as much as 40% extra fuel needed depending on how rich and conservative you like to tune.

 

Higher the compression the higher the efficiency. Better use of the gas.

Compression Octane Number Brake Thermal Efficiency
Ratio Requirement ( Full Throttle )
5:1 72 -
6:1 81 25 %
7:1 87 28 %
8:1 92 30 %
9:1 96 32 %
10:1 100 33 %
11:1 104 34 %
12:1 108 35 %

 

8 Farads? What are you using? You could weld with those things!

 

Yes yes you could, it was originally for a serious audio project a friend was working on, but he wound up not needing it.. now I want to make some sort of frankenstein go kart with some of the other parts and materials I have laying around.

It's going to be heavy though, so I don't know if go cart is the right word... probably just an absurdly fast lawn tractor/tow pig for my other projects and yard work. More just an experiment.

Another friend of mine into serious car audio uses a 2Far cap in our efforts to combat our crappy DSM OE Alternators and killing batteries on our aging electrical systems as a voltage stabilizer. Fuel pump flow and injector/spark behavior is very sensitive under boost, and theres nothing worse than melting pistons and exhaust valves because you were listening to music and cruising with a passenger tuning at the same time.

I personally opted to go for rewound high output alternator with a small pulley rated for like 160A, large 1ga chargewire to a 1520CA 155minute reserve Braille battery, and some big fat 2ga straps to the frame. Along with a rewire with 10ga high density to both fuel pumps and trigger relay. I am considering a 1Far cap because of all my electronics, gauges pumps including methanol pump,, high output starter, lap top, meth computer, UEGO controller etc on top of front/rear washer fluid motors, both windshield wiper motors, radio, blower motor yada yada so I think it may be worth while to take up some of the rapid fluctuations.

My logged voltage has dropped .3v to 12.8v at 850rpm idle and 14.3v anywhere above 1050rpm after relocating to the trunk. I want to revisit my contact surfaces though, because it should def be higher, I did it in a hurry to get the windows closed before it rained since it started off cloudless and warm saturday morning

 

Okay, it's been a while. Took the Fit to Nebraska and back, mostly on 89 octane E10. For those not following my posts in other threads, some Nebraska-specific info follows.

They do have more E85 stations, but if you ask for "E85" they might not know what you want. A more familiar term for that region is "gasohol".

At a number of stations, 89 or 93 octane E10 was actually cheaper than 87. I remember one such station was in downtown Lincoln.

In Grand Island, there's a station that has E10, E20, E30, and E85 pumps.

Anyway, I hadn't filled up with an E-blend for a while, since I was nowhere near an E85 station when I hit empty. I did fill up with a 50-50 mix of 87 octane E10 and (probably) winter-mix E70. I got a little worse mileage on that tank. I filled up my next tank with straight 93 E10.

Today, I filled up with 4.3 gallons of 87 and 6.9 gallons of "E85", which again is probably E70 for the cold weather. My calculations put the overall mix at E48, or E56 if the ethanol tank has true E85. The price at that station were $3.04 for 87 and $2.76 for "E85".

As the old saying goes, "here goes nothin'!"

 

From what I read you should be Ok unless you full throttle, then the CEL will come on. That seems to be a little more ethanol than you normally put in though so it would be interesting to see what happens. Have you ever replaced the fuel filter yet? and if you have did you take it apart?

 

Nope. Just after 16 miles, the CEL came on at medium throttle and about 2000 RPM. I know that the LTFT lean error is just on an arbitrary number out of spec, not necessarily indicative of any potential damage, so I plan to push the ethanol mix as far as I can. I've done a few WOT runs up to about 4000 RPM without a problem, so we'll see what happens for the rest of the tank.

 

You can alway add more gas to richen it up, listen for engine misfire and surging. I just got gas and it surges a little, I wonder if theres alot of ethanol in it and that explains the poor mpg even though is on the way up from 0 degrees we had a few weeks ago.

The CEL light probably came on because it takes time to tune up. You said that you haven't run E85 mix in a while so I am thing it detune itself.

 

Okay, those stations where I filled up don't seem to use a winter blend, so calculations (which I'm not doing now) should assume true E85 for those last two tanks.

I got about 37 MPG on the earlier one and about 38-39 MPG for the later one.

I've filled up with conventional fuel recently, since I wasn't near the E85 stations, but I just filled up the other day with my most ambitious mix: 3.1 gallons of 93 octane E10, and 8.2 gallons E85. Due to my location and empty tank, I got the 93 fuel at a different station about 26 miles away from the E85 station, so I used about 0.6 gallons before filling up with E85. This puts my current mix at about E70.

So far I have the usual CEL but it runs great. Sometimes it takes a little more to start when cold, but it's really peppy. I guess it must be around 99-100 octane.

The exhaust smell is so much better than with E10, especially at cold startup.

 

You need to get an ultra gauge to see where the fuel trims and timing are. Premium does make the engine produce more power and I see the fuel trims pulling fuel so with the e85 added it can take more in the mix before the CEL comes on.

The ecu timing looks to full advance and thats where the extra power comes from, it always looks for full advance. Hondata has found a problem with Honda knock sensors and that it pulls timing even if there is no knock so that leads me to believe thats why the mpg is a big swept between driving conditions and loads. Its warmer down there and that helps with mpg and glad to see no problems.

 

My ScanGauge II already shows timing, and I can tell whether I'm getting good advance, but I didn't know there was any fuel trim data to be found. How much is the UG?

 

UltraGauge Automotive Information Center and OBDII Scan Tool Need to order it fast only 35 left.

 

Well, the earlier E70 tank, with careful driving, netted just under 42 MPG. Unfortunately, I wasn't there when the fuel tank neared empty, so the next fill-up was with 87 octane E10.

After 400-plus miles of total blah, I filled up with another E-mix, this time about E67, and it looks like I'll average 41 MPG for the tank.

I conclude that presently my Fit drives a little better with 93 octane E10 than with ethanol-rich fuel, probably due to running a bit leaner than optimal on the ethanol. However, it seems to work better with E70 than with 87 octane E10.

 

Did you see this http://www.crcao.org/news/Mid%20Leve...Sep23_2010.pdf I am waiting for the final report to be posted.

Link not working, I guess theres a update coming out.

 

Here is one more thing I posted else where but its a good read. http://ethanolrfa.3cdn.net/dd9e74ce1..._rbm6bdgh3.pdf

 

Nice, lots of info in here now that this thread is getting into the results instead of the guesses and speculation.

SilverBullet, your first link no longer works, the second is still good.

Here's another one about Ethanol blend octane rating and efficiency at different Compression ratios:
http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2010-01-0619.pdf
My favorite part is when they talk about running an engine on regular with 12:1 Compression turbo engine and using E50 direct injection under load. Awesome.

Note that E50-E85 are both about 96 octane , so it's not a reliable source of info to use octane to define Ethanol blends. If anything it should be Ethanol compared to results. And E85 compares closely with C16 from what I've seen of other's results.

I also know that some stations/Refineries have switched to 85 octane Gasoline and are using the Ethanol as a cheap octane booster, saves a few pennies per gallon but it has people griping even more about the bad MPG .

I just want to add that the lean condition, even though you mentioned that the CEL was only for out-of-spec condition, is a potential problem. I'm not a tuner but I always tell people to upgrade the fuel pump and the injectors if they intend to go higher than E25 for long, just so they play it safe and don't spoil their fun.

Is there still not engine management that you can control spark advance for the Fit? Because I've heard a good tune makes an even bigger difference for Premium Gasoline and especially for higher % Ethanol blends .

 

I wish that they would use 87 octane and then add 10 percent ethanol or more but using a 78 octane base with toluene and ethanol like you said is cutting corners for the benefit of the refiners.

As far as tuning timing as long as the octane is high enough to get into MBT timing then there is no benefit for adjusting higher unless changing parts, but the Fit is capable of adjusting because of the rich fuel air mixture at load over 70 percent. These new ecu's are very adaptable and spark timing is self adjustable because of the knock sensor. I have noticed that the ecu with premium leans out and runs in close loop even at full throttle on the dyno. Dont know about the new GE8s but the GD3 did. Keeping the car in open loop and subtracting fuel might result in better power as long as the timing is in MBT. I think there is controllers for the fuel and air but dont know about the timing.

Its hard to find e85 out here now, most are for the post office only. S/D has not updated lately so dont know hows he doing. I do know hes ran E30-E40 mixtures with no problems except for the CEL.

 

The ONLY way to evaluate fuels is by heat of combustion, typically BTu per pound. Any other is ficticious. The energy from the combustion is the mpg and power result. Alcohol, such as ethanol, always lowers the energy in gasoline. And of course raises food prices.
Unfortunately, refineries are gearing processing toward maximum volume which means the energy content is dropping for all grades. Lesser components (typically less toluene) are easier to get.
As long as we have refineries operating at more than 80% of capacity, net, due to the small number of refineries (haven't built another one in at least a decade) you can expect gasoline to become scarce & not just because of more competition for buying crude. In case you missed it China will soon sell 30 million cars a year (they already outsell the USA) and their bids on available crude will certainly increase gas prices in the future. And they are building refineries of the latest technology at a fast pace.
Engine management systems must control fuel injection against current laws for pollutants in exhast, ie exhaust emissions, and not for more power or more mpg. China is managing, not politicing.
PS many refineries produce 85 octane for higher elevations because its all thats needed and have for many years.
cheers.

 

Agree but 117 HP is a lot for a 92 CU in. motor. Found some info from the EPA but not able to link it. Its 30 years old and tests with knock sensors with a v6 turbo Buick that made 170 HP. Thats was fast back in the day and it was 231 cubic motor so if we took Honda tech to that with out the turbo it would produce close to 300 HP and have clean emissions. Honda does a good job in both power and emissions.

 

Today the typical normalkly aspirated high output engine meeting emissions requirements is 100 hp per liter; for a 1.5 liter engine thats 150 hp.
As the displacement increases getting 100 hp/L gets more difficult which explains why getting 600 hp from a 6 liter normally aspirated engine is very difficult. 117 hp from 1.5L is pretty tame but then it is a worldwide marketplace vehicle.
Honda must do a good job meeting emissions or they can't sell it.
Unfortunately, the latest high tech creations -CRZ and Civic hybrid - both lack Hondas reputation for being hipo vehicles for everyone (compared to Porsche's hipo vehicles for the rich). Why wasn't the 1700 HX engine that got 40+ mpg without being a hybrid used as the basis for both hybrids? The CRZ certainly should have been a 150 hp hybrid at least, and the Civic 140 hp. The CRZ wouldn't be crowding lots then; there would be a backlog. Course with the earthquake and Tsunami that may not be so bad.

PS seen the upcoming Toyota Scion Ferrari lookalike offering with 200 hp?
Honda better get busy.