It's hard to drive one car, change the oil and draw any conclusions about the changes that might occur based on switching to synthetic oil.

If you had two Fits and treated them identically except for the oil you could compare. But even then there would be differences attributable to the car rather than the oil.

If you had a fleet of 100 Fits then maybe you could operate 50 on each type of oil and make a comparison that had some scientific validity.

If you had a fleet of tens of thousands of Fits and you were exceedingly frugal you'd probably run a test.

And if your Fits were all brown, and weren't Fits at all but package delivery trucks operated by a company that's so scientific it tells its drivers how to carry their keys and reprogrammed the routes to minimize left turns (slower and more dangerous than right turns) you would probably study what impact oil has on fuel consumption and engine life.

I expect them to have done this. I do not know if they have done it.

But I did ask at my local UPS garage what type of oil they did use.

And the winner is..............



Regular oil, not synthetic.

Black Bear brand, he thought it was 15W40.

Black Bear may be a local brand to NYC, but I encourage other Fit folks, if they have a nearby UPS garage, to ask what they use, to confirm the info I was given.

 

Of all the information on conventional vs. synthetic out there, there seems to be a general consensus that synthetic is better, I have found. I can't see any reason not to use synthetic over dino, except maybe price, but then again I would change my oil sooner than I would if I had used synthetic, but that's just me.

 

ahahaha, great post




Only problem is in the conclusion.... UPS has much more cost-pressure than we do. i.e., what's most cost-effective for a mega-fleet of delivery vehicles isn't necessarily necessarily what's best for our DD's. (Although it might be.)

hmmmm... What types of failures would arise from using shitty oil for 150,000mi ... versus Mobile1 or whatever? I mean... it just has to be good enough right?

 

Of course- their trucks have a different engine and it's started and stopped dozens of times a day for five days in a row, then sits from Friday evening to Monday morning.

BUT- my hypothesis is that if syn oil were cost-effective they'd be all over it.

Now you may view syn oil as insurance- they can bear the cost of an occasional engine failure if it's still less expensive than the added cost of syn oil over an entire fleet, whereas one engine failure for us would suck.

The general consensus was that ulcer were caused by excessive stomach acid and that remained until a doctor everybody thought was nuts proved it was caused by bacteria...

Everybody says syn oil is better but I want to see scientific principles applied.

Please, folks outside of NY- ask your local UPS and FedEx, etc. what they do.

 

If UPS only got 150,000 miles out of an engine on average, they would be researching why. They probably get at least double that, yes on "sh*tty oil". Any API licensed modern oil is very very good. Just learn something about the chemistry and you will realize that there is not that much difference from "dino" to "syn" anymore. Only when you get into arctic cold or a few specialty engines with unique design "flaws", such as BMW M3, Corvette, Porsche and some VW diesels is special full syn really required.

 

Key word there is "required."

Just because something like full syn isn't required doesn't mean you can write off the benefits.





Brain not everything that is best is determined by cost advantage. OE manufacturers and large firms like UPS (where I was an engineer at the CACH mega facility) don't often pick the best thing when they prefer to find a balance on cost and performance.

You seem to keep approaching these topics from what you called the "economists" point of view, and while there is a good deal to be said for that the determining the actual advantages from the discreet differences in physical properties of the types of oil (or fuel from the other discussions we have had)are far less simple than well if X group or Y manufacturer doesn't do it or require it then it must not be better.

Did you ever read the articles of Dr. Haas I linked for you, K_C, SB and others?

Or the write up on energy lost to bearing film surface friction vs. bearing operating condition (the stribeck "curve") and how that relates to the stages of BOC, and full hydrodynamic lubrication?

That was definitely not a definitive post on the topic of oil. Please stop trying to make statements like this when you don't have actual knowledge on the subject. It is really frustrating.

This is something I and others have spent a long time studying and experimenting with, and these posts border on offensive.

It is that studying and experimentation which has had me using synthetic 5w40 since it has been available in most of my race cars and why I switched to a synth 0w20 in my Fit before Honda even made the switch themselves.

I am sure you could run used fouled 10w30 in your engine if you wish and it would last you years without issue directly related to the oil causing eventual failure.

That doesn't mean you should.

An old beater "rolling lab" of mine went over 25,000 miles on a single change of pre-used oil that came out of one of my track cars just for sh*ts and giggles.

The main bearings still looked good after 90k miles with regular OCI's and then the final 25k on the pre-used 10w30 dino juice when I yanked them at the final oil change before retiring it.

And this was an engine with a Brake Mean Effective Pressure far greater than that of our Fits with very tight bearing clearances and piston to wall tolerances.

 

Brain - I would have stuck with you a bit closer, but you picked UPS.
The guys that don't make left hand turns and are schooled in how to park in the way of anything around when you park a big brown box!
Other than handbags on the hood [no offense Julian_] the other of today's pet peeves, UPS parking habits.

Last week I actually asked a driver if they taught them to park that way - guy had his truck parked just inside the middle of a fish-fry parking lot, crowding the snow bound entry and blocking parked cars.
He said yes...

There's a boat load of information out and about on synthetic oil. Today's the day of extended oil changes. Synthetics definitely perform better under those conditions, and is the primary reason I'll be switching.

Honda has not recommended my 2010 FIT use synthetic oil. By 2012 they very well might...

I think you'll find that over the road trucking companies are running synthetic oil and tranny fluid.
With the big boys it makes $$sense to run syn for the increase in service life and superior 'lubrication' qualities.
Bottom line for them is the cost/mile and it's use improves fleet MPG's to make it worth it.

 

I went shoe-shopping a bunch of years ago- there were roughly identical-looking leather loafers, one for $89 and the other was $300.

I asked the salesman what the difference was, and he said "The quality of the leather."

I asked if the more expensive one lasted longer. No.
Did it hold a shine longer? No.
Would it feel better on my feet with socks on? No.
Was it more water or dirt-resistant? No.
Did it look better? No.

I asked every question I could think of and that wasn't the difference.

The only conclusion I could draw was that "quality of the leather" was a synonym for $211.

Sure, not every difference in a car can be measured in dollars. But here are the possible advantages I can see with syn oil:
- Does the engine last longer?
- Does the engine suffer less wear?
- Does the engine use less fuel?
- Does the engine produce more power?

And the only benefit I see in the first three is cost-savings (unless you count some increased risk of being stranded due to a broken engine). The fourth can be a user benefit not translatable into dollars. Clearly it's important if you're racing. I'm not.

Less friction might be great but what's the end result to me and my car?

In my salad I can taste the difference between cheap olive oil and good olive oil. So I use good (expensive) olive oil in my salad. In pesto I can't taste the difference so I use the cheaper stuff.

I could change my oil every thousand miles, too, and the 'benefit' would be that my car's always running on darn clean oil. Is this justified? Most people would say it's a waste of time & money. I could do the opposite- change my oil every 30,000 miles and people would say that's stupid because the oil would be too dirty. So the cost/benefit analysis result is to recommend oil changes every 7,500 miles or so based on driving (and that's roughly what my car's mileage minder is implying).


Sorry if you're offended by the sarcastic title to my posting. And yes I've read most of the links people have included in prior postings, to the extent they've made sense to me.

 

For the record, I've been using syn oil for quite a while (my Fit's too new so it still has original oil) because I read all about how it's a 'better' lubricant.

But I want to know the actual user benefits to better lubrication (presumably because of more uniform particle size). As I mentioned, new oil is a better lubricant than old oil, but that doesn't mean it makes sense to change my oil on a daily basis...

 

I want to go buy shoes with you.....

 

Simply put: less friction is directly correlated with less wear and higher pumping efficiency.

What goes in racing always applies on the road, and is often where the OE manufacturers test and pioneer the technologies which trickle down to consumers over the years.

You are free to use what makes financial sense to you.

Edit: There is more to it than particle size/mass and a lot has to do with flow and shear resistance, among myriad others.. Even heterogenous syn/dino blends are used in many applications, like over the road semi's

The OCI's and volumes required are worlds apart from passenger vehicles, but the physics still apply.

 

Right- higher efficiency means more power and lower operating temps.

In normal use it's unlikely my car will overheat, and would I notice an extra hp or fraction thereof? (obviously a racer would)

Less wear ought to mean that when the car has 100,000 miles it'll run better- for instance my prior car sounded louder when it was old vs. new, and maybe some of that was engine wear. So maybe I'd notice that (and maybe also a potential buyer would).

Let's say 20 oil changes over the life of my car (150,000 miles, changes every 7500). 4 quarts, roughly. Syn is $8, regular is $3? So the difference is $400 on my $16,000 car.

Of course if I get 1% better mileage that saves me $200 (30 mpg at $4 per gallon). 2% better mileage and my oil's paid-for.

I can't measure 2% but I figured that UPS would've done that, hence the original posting. Of course this is the same company that hires drivers who can't tell the difference between 3 and 4 so 10% of my packages end up a block away...

 

Like I said earlier, do what makes financial sense for you. And as a former UPS CACH engineer.. let me tell you they do not have things as sorted out as they lead you to believe. The facility lost ~$250k a week in damaged/lost parcels at that location during the holiday seasons.

At redline you can lose 50hp worth of energy through parasitic losses just between the 5 main crankshaft bearings and the journals.. and that is after full hydrodynamic lubrication has been achieved. I have a write up on this in Klasse Act's mileage thread.

That is roughly 10hp/bearing on a standardized dino juice 10w30 for a small gas 4 cylinder engine.

That is a lot of heat and wear, and doesn't even account for the friction of the rings and contact patches of the pistons on the bores. Or the rod journals and wrist pins.

Or the lobes/rockers/rollers.. or the valves stems on the valve guides and seals, etc. Or crank windage against the oil in the pan.

There is a lot more than 2% to be gained in many cases, especially since 2% is within the margin for error (R) on some of these experiments

These are all reasons why you and I as Joe Consumer stand to benefit longterm from full syn oil.

I read a report that americans are keeping cars bought new off the lot for a mean of 9 years.

@ 12k/year you can see why that $400 over 150k can pay off at the end of the life cycle and then extend the duty life yet further assuming the operators do their routine maintenance and inspection.

At 150k that initial choice between a good oil and a great oil can be the difference of needing an oil change and other basic maintenance outlined in the shop manual.. or a complete overhaul.

Note: I am not a salesman or an oil company employee or distributor. Just a gear head who likes to see things built right and run for as long as possible with as little maintenance as possible.

 

A buddy of mine interning at NASA about 5 years ago (now working for them) gave me some technical documents on the air-foil (lubeless) bearings with almost no friction. Now they are starting to use these in some of the crazier applications.

There is even a group looking to use these air-foil bearings in turbocharger center sections.

Less friction is almost always better when it comes to engine internals.

Some items are coated to let the oil slide off, others are left comparably rough so the oil stays on the surface longer to cool better.. oil is an incredibly complex topic. Like fuel economy. Or tires.

It is however an easy choice for me when it comes to syn v. dino oils.. and some things are excessive or not feasible I agree.

Like using Copper-Beryllium (CuBe) valve seats or Metal-Matrix Composite (MMC) bearingless connecting rods in a DD, as those are basically F1 technology.

Some things are just a good idea. Syn oil is one of them when properly matched to your application. Like a stock fit running full syn 0w20.

 

Ive never seen any real benefits of synthetic oil in the fit. There might be in the new ivtec because of the cam rotation. Honda uses regular petroleum oil, thats what they advertise except the turbo. They also use a new moly formula that absorbs into the metal without build up like in the past. They coated the pistons too which ends up in the oil.

The new oils GF4/GF5 rating has synthetic properties to meet the API standard. Even Gf3 can pass a 216 hour test which would be 5000.7500 miles. Then is also very little sulphur in oil and gasoline which is one of the reasons of oil break down. So which no sulphuric acid in the oil it lasts longer.

As far a temperatures in the motor, unless turbo or supercharged theres not enough heat produced in a aluminum motor to warrant synthetics.

Most of you guys call me on a 5-7 percent gain in mpg and now a 1 percent is important. The trick is to use a good gas, good oil and stick with it.


Everyone seen the commercials liquid ball bearings, Quakerstate in NY meets new oil standard even when a change is needed. That tells me that dirt or soot is the reason for the oil change. Synthetics get dirty just as fast. I am not against synthetics which by definition is all gasoline and oil that is on the market.

 

This is always one of those topics that will get a different response from each person - only thing I can go by is experience.

My wife and I still own our first new car - 2003 Mazda. When we moved to Eastern Pennsylvania in 2005 I started noticing valve clatter on start-ups when temps were below 20F. I had been running M1 since the third oil change and the car had @60k on the clock.

Did a little research and ended up going two years ago with Royal Purple 5W30. Have not heard anything from the valves since then, even this winter when one morn the thermometer outside said a crisp -3...

Either oil will work - just might have to modify for you particular conditions... Important thing is to make sure you stay topped off and change it when needed.

Good luck.

 

Pretty much everything you said there is spot on!

You know we are both on board if we can see as much as 5% gain in any area! This is where I try to make the difference in my Fit.

I am trying to do every small marginal modification possible so that by the time I get to boosting, forged internals and drivetrain work I can comfortably max out my particular setup.

In spite of the "spirited manner" that I tend to drive and I am on big chunky snow tires I still average my tanks over 32mpg with the short MT ratios at stock height..

The car also out strips cars that should by all rights (lb/hp) absolutely wail on me from a dig or a highway roll.

All I have done is cold, re-gapped plugs, good fuel, synthetic oil in the pan, synthetic gear oil, and lightweight wheels with a less restrictive intake filter.

So 2-7% just from an oil change is huge for me from an engineering and racing standpoint.

The one thing I do want to touch on is the differences in parasitic losses.

Some are dynamic losses that effect transient response, some are constant, and some are velocity dependent. A good oil that combats all three will make a marked difference if you go from a dino 5w20 to a quality syn 0w20.

The same thing applies for gear oils. I am using a blend of Redline MTL 70w80 GL-4 and Redline Lightweight Shockproof

The Lightweight shock proof trans fluid I use which is rated as 75w140, actually has an internal fluid friction comparable to a straight 80w gear oil, which is equivalent to a straight 30w engine oil.

So I am actually making a big difference in the above transient, constant and speed dependent losses in the trans.

When coupled with the rest of the comparably minor mods I performed (plugs, fuel, wheels, molybdenum sulfide lube or grease on all driveline components) it truly does make a significant difference.

Because even if I only gain 1-3% back from my losses in all 3 categories... combined if there is even an 8-10% increase in power delivered to the ground.. that is a big deal in a car rated 109HP SAE!

Little things add up! The fact that the fuel, grease/moly lube, and gear/engine fluids also provide better protection than the original stuff only sweetens the deal with the potential for longevity in the face any abuse I put it through vs. say a hypermiler who never breaks 55mph and takes a minute to get to that speed.

Odds are good actually that the way I wind the engine out atleast once a week means my internals are cleaner than theirs.. that may be controversial or counter-intuitive for some but it is usually the case. Assuming everything is maintained of course.

A good old time tech will tell you that sometimes a little tough love is best as weird as that may sound.

 

We called that kickin out the jams. MC5 Detroit Propopunk 1968