Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
#161
08-08-2005, 06:52 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-0808051022210001@pm4-broad-9.snlo.dialup.fix.net...
> In article <dd81qu$u4o$3@blue.rahul.net>, dold@XReXXDarkX.usenet.us.com
> wrote:
>
>> FanJet <FanJet27@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > The Smart doesn't consume gasoline
>>
>> The Dark Side of Diesel:
>> http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/english/faq/a...re=3228&text=N
>
> Hello,
> I might have missed it but does anyone know of a website where I can see a
> picture of the "Smart" vehicle?
>
Google owns you.
smart.com
#162
08-08-2005, 06:52 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
In article <jason-0808051022210001@pm4-broad-9.snlo.dialup.fix.net>, jason@nospam.com (Jason) wrote:
>Do other people agree or disagree that those people that charge the
>batteries that they might end up getting more MPG but their electrical
>utility bills will be higher and the utility companies will have to burn
>more oil to run their generators. In other words, in the long run--they
>might not be saving any money in the long run.
Electric wins out ...
A pure electric vehicle might average 300-400 Wh/mile. Add charging
inefficiency and it'll take a bit more, but let's use 400 Wh. My
marginal electric is about $.07/kWh, so it's about $0.028/mi, or
about 36 mi/$. Compare to gasoline at about 10 mi/$ ($2.40/gal and
a 24 mpg car).
Efficiencywise, using 41% average electrical efficiency, it's about
1 kWh(original fuel)/mi compared to about 1.6 for crude oil to the
above car.
But if everyone did it, we'd have to up our electrical capacity by
quite a bit! ( I don't think just off peak charging would do it).
>Do other people agree or disagree that those people that charge the
>batteries that they might end up getting more MPG but their electrical
>utility bills will be higher and the utility companies will have to burn
>more oil to run their generators. In other words, in the long run--they
>might not be saving any money in the long run.
Electric wins out ...
A pure electric vehicle might average 300-400 Wh/mile. Add charging
inefficiency and it'll take a bit more, but let's use 400 Wh. My
marginal electric is about $.07/kWh, so it's about $0.028/mi, or
about 36 mi/$. Compare to gasoline at about 10 mi/$ ($2.40/gal and
a 24 mpg car).
Efficiencywise, using 41% average electrical efficiency, it's about
1 kWh(original fuel)/mi compared to about 1.6 for crude oil to the
above car.
But if everyone did it, we'd have to up our electrical capacity by
quite a bit! ( I don't think just off peak charging would do it).
#163
08-08-2005, 06:52 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
Sparky Spartacus <Sparky@universalexports.org> wrote:
>>>The Dark Side of Diesel:
>>>http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/english/faq/a...re=3228&text=N
> As a historian I would remind the NG that the ICE was seen as a clean
> alternative to horse power and the tons of manure the horses left on
> city streets every day. Manure was sticky mud when wet and choking
> coulds of dust when dry.
Replacing all of the cars currently on the road with an equivalent number
of horses would lead to environmental problems very quickly.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
>>>The Dark Side of Diesel:
>>>http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/english/faq/a...re=3228&text=N
> As a historian I would remind the NG that the ICE was seen as a clean
> alternative to horse power and the tons of manure the horses left on
> city streets every day. Manure was sticky mud when wet and choking
> coulds of dust when dry.
Replacing all of the cars currently on the road with an equivalent number
of horses would lead to environmental problems very quickly.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
#164
08-08-2005, 09:31 PM
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Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
dold@XReXXDarkX.usenet.us.com wrote:
> FanJet <FanJet27@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> The Smart doesn't consume gasoline and it's very unlikely the
>> Insight gets 73 US MPG irrespective of conditions.
>
> That belies the "only source of energy" that you repeat frequently.
> It's oil, not diesel or gasoline, for the Smart and most other cars.
>
> I picked posted results for each because that would seem to be the
> folks from the hyper-miler class, squeezing miles out of their barrel
> of oil. I stayed with Canadian posts, so I could keep the Smart in
> context.
>
> There are hypermilers in the US that report 90MPG with the Insight.
>
> The Smart is estimated at 51/61 USMPG (and 19.8 seconds 0-60).
> The Insight is rated at 60/71 USMPG (and 10.6 seconds 0-60).
What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight is not
rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.
> FanJet <FanJet27@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> The Smart doesn't consume gasoline and it's very unlikely the
>> Insight gets 73 US MPG irrespective of conditions.
>
> That belies the "only source of energy" that you repeat frequently.
> It's oil, not diesel or gasoline, for the Smart and most other cars.
>
> I picked posted results for each because that would seem to be the
> folks from the hyper-miler class, squeezing miles out of their barrel
> of oil. I stayed with Canadian posts, so I could keep the Smart in
> context.
>
> There are hypermilers in the US that report 90MPG with the Insight.
>
> The Smart is estimated at 51/61 USMPG (and 19.8 seconds 0-60).
> The Insight is rated at 60/71 USMPG (and 10.6 seconds 0-60).
What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight is not
rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.
#165
08-08-2005, 09:31 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
FanJet <FanJet27@hotmail.com> wrote:
> What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight is not
> rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.
Certainly you don't think that the Smart is getting 51mpg during the run?
Why would you point out that the Insight doesn't get EPA rated mileage
during an acceleration run unless it differs from the Smart car?
Given that the Insight doesn't get good mileage during a 0-60 run, do you
think it is better than the Smart during a 0-60 run, with the Smart taking
twice as long for the run?
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
> What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight is not
> rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.
Certainly you don't think that the Smart is getting 51mpg during the run?
Why would you point out that the Insight doesn't get EPA rated mileage
during an acceleration run unless it differs from the Smart car?
Given that the Insight doesn't get good mileage during a 0-60 run, do you
think it is better than the Smart during a 0-60 run, with the Smart taking
twice as long for the run?
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
#166
08-08-2005, 11:33 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
dold@XReXXDarkX.usenet.us.com wrote:
> Sparky Spartacus <Sparky@universalexports.org> wrote:
>
>>>>The Dark Side of Diesel:
>>>>http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/english/faq/a...re=3228&text=N
>
>
>>As a historian I would remind the NG that the ICE was seen as a clean
>>alternative to horse power and the tons of manure the horses left on
>>city streets every day. Manure was sticky mud when wet and choking
>>coulds of dust when dry.
>
>
> Replacing all of the cars currently on the road with an equivalent number
> of horses would lead to environmental problems very quickly.
>
especially if you consider my civic has 108 horsepower. that would be a
long horsedrawn carriage.
> Sparky Spartacus <Sparky@universalexports.org> wrote:
>
>>>>The Dark Side of Diesel:
>>>>http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/english/faq/a...re=3228&text=N
>
>
>>As a historian I would remind the NG that the ICE was seen as a clean
>>alternative to horse power and the tons of manure the horses left on
>>city streets every day. Manure was sticky mud when wet and choking
>>coulds of dust when dry.
>
>
> Replacing all of the cars currently on the road with an equivalent number
> of horses would lead to environmental problems very quickly.
>
especially if you consider my civic has 108 horsepower. that would be a
long horsedrawn carriage.
#168
08-09-2005, 01:30 AM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
On Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:25:39 +0000 (UTC), dold@XReXXDarkX.usenet.us.com
wrote:
>Jason <jason@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> I might have missed it but does anyone know of a website where I can see a
>> picture of the "Smart" vehicle?
>
>http://www.threepointmotors.com/smart/index.asp is a Canadian Dealer.
>
>> Do other people agree or disagree that those people that charge the
>> batteries that they might end up getting more MPG but their electrical
>> utility bills will be higher and the utility companies will have to burn
>> more oil to run their generators. In other words, in the long run--they
>> might not be saving any money in the long run.
>
>This is the subject of "well to wheel" comparisons. How much does it help,
>if any, to move the generation of the power from one place to another,
>including the inefficiencies in transport.
>
>Time of day metering might be mandatory for an Electric car owner, charging
>up at night.
>
>Solar power could be used for charging the electric vehicle, in a home
>setup.
>
>Nuclear/Geothermal/Hydro could be the source of the electricity, reducing
>the need for non-renewable and foreign resources.
Don't forget wind.
wrote:
>Jason <jason@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> I might have missed it but does anyone know of a website where I can see a
>> picture of the "Smart" vehicle?
>
>http://www.threepointmotors.com/smart/index.asp is a Canadian Dealer.
>
>> Do other people agree or disagree that those people that charge the
>> batteries that they might end up getting more MPG but their electrical
>> utility bills will be higher and the utility companies will have to burn
>> more oil to run their generators. In other words, in the long run--they
>> might not be saving any money in the long run.
>
>This is the subject of "well to wheel" comparisons. How much does it help,
>if any, to move the generation of the power from one place to another,
>including the inefficiencies in transport.
>
>Time of day metering might be mandatory for an Electric car owner, charging
>up at night.
>
>Solar power could be used for charging the electric vehicle, in a home
>setup.
>
>Nuclear/Geothermal/Hydro could be the source of the electricity, reducing
>the need for non-renewable and foreign resources.
Don't forget wind.
#169
08-09-2005, 01:30 AM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
dold@XReXXDarkX.usenet.us.com wrote:
> FanJet <FanJet27@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight
>> is not rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.
>
> Certainly you don't think that the Smart is getting 51mpg during the
> run?
>
> Why would you point out that the Insight doesn't get EPA rated mileage
> during an acceleration run unless it differs from the Smart car?
>
> Given that the Insight doesn't get good mileage during a 0-60 run, do
> you think it is better than the Smart during a 0-60 run, with the
> Smart taking twice as long for the run?
Not after the first run or two which is about all you get before a battery
recharge is required. Always ignored is the fact that hybrid efficiency
drops dramatically with ambient temperature - another problem the Smart42
and plain old gasoline ICE cars don't have. This particular problem is
mitigated by warming the batteries in the same way the passenger compartment
is warmed. If it's cold outside, you can plan on hybrid ICEs running all the
time - even in city driving. Same thing happens with the batteries get too
warm except then they use A/C which, again, requires the ICE.
> FanJet <FanJet27@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight
>> is not rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.
>
> Certainly you don't think that the Smart is getting 51mpg during the
> run?
>
> Why would you point out that the Insight doesn't get EPA rated mileage
> during an acceleration run unless it differs from the Smart car?
>
> Given that the Insight doesn't get good mileage during a 0-60 run, do
> you think it is better than the Smart during a 0-60 run, with the
> Smart taking twice as long for the run?
Not after the first run or two which is about all you get before a battery
recharge is required. Always ignored is the fact that hybrid efficiency
drops dramatically with ambient temperature - another problem the Smart42
and plain old gasoline ICE cars don't have. This particular problem is
mitigated by warming the batteries in the same way the passenger compartment
is warmed. If it's cold outside, you can plan on hybrid ICEs running all the
time - even in city driving. Same thing happens with the batteries get too
warm except then they use A/C which, again, requires the ICE.
#170
08-09-2005, 03:49 AM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
dold@XReXXDarkX.usenet.us.com wrote:
> Sparky Spartacus <Sparky@universalexports.org> wrote:
>
>>>>The Dark Side of Diesel:
>>>>http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/english/faq/a...re=3228&text=N
>
>
>>As a historian I would remind the NG that the ICE was seen as a clean
>>alternative to horse power and the tons of manure the horses left on
>>city streets every day. Manure was sticky mud when wet and choking
>>coulds of dust when dry.
>
> Replacing all of the cars currently on the road with an equivalent number
> of horses would lead to environmental problems very quickly.
You bet! Not what I was suggesting, of course. Too expensive to convert
all the gas stations to selling hay & oats, just for openers, plus
there's a severe shortage of blacksmiths to keep the horses shod.
> Sparky Spartacus <Sparky@universalexports.org> wrote:
>
>>>>The Dark Side of Diesel:
>>>>http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/english/faq/a...re=3228&text=N
>
>
>>As a historian I would remind the NG that the ICE was seen as a clean
>>alternative to horse power and the tons of manure the horses left on
>>city streets every day. Manure was sticky mud when wet and choking
>>coulds of dust when dry.
>
> Replacing all of the cars currently on the road with an equivalent number
> of horses would lead to environmental problems very quickly.
You bet! Not what I was suggesting, of course. Too expensive to convert
all the gas stations to selling hay & oats, just for openers, plus
there's a severe shortage of blacksmiths to keep the horses shod.
#171
08-09-2005, 07:44 AM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
In article <f_SJe.393$MP5.38175@monger.newsread.com>, "FanJet" <FanJet27@hotmail.com> wrote:
>What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight is not
>rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.
???
This is a silly point.
>What you're forgetting, typical for this thread, is that the Insight is not
>rated at 60/71 USMPG while doing 10.6 second 0-60 times.
???
This is a silly point.
#172
08-09-2005, 02:37 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
FanJet <FanJet27@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not after the first run or two which is about all you get before a
> battery recharge is required.
Motor Trend did eight back to back runs to deplete the battery, and
then they still got a 13.1 second 0-60.
> Always ignored is the fact that hybrid efficiency drops dramatically with
> ambient temperature - another problem the Smart42 and plain old gasoline
> ICE cars don't have.
I don't notice a drop in 20-30 degree weather. Dramatically colder
climates might see different results. I do see a drop in MPG with the A/C
running, whether in the summer to cool the car, or the winter to defrost.
> This particular problem is mitigated by warming the batteries in the same
> way the passenger compartment is warmed. If it's cold outside, you can
> plan on hybrid ICEs running all the time - even in city driving. Same
> thing happens with the batteries get too warm except then they use A/C
> which, again, requires the ICE.
The ICE does not auto-stop when it is cold. I haven't noticed that cause a
drop in the mileage. I think its contribution is small for normal driving.
It might be a plus in congested city traffic, but there I find that the
Honda runs anyway, because it has to get up to 10mph before the auto-stop
is enabled. There is no A/C for the batteries in a Honda. It gets a flow
of air from the passenger compartment, whatever temp that might be.
There is a separate cooling/heating unit in the Escape. I think it is a
separate electric-driven unit, so it doesn't require the ICE to be running.
I can hear it running after the ICE shuts off. I don't know that I would
call it A/C, since it uses coolant and not freon.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
> Not after the first run or two which is about all you get before a
> battery recharge is required.
Motor Trend did eight back to back runs to deplete the battery, and
then they still got a 13.1 second 0-60.
> Always ignored is the fact that hybrid efficiency drops dramatically with
> ambient temperature - another problem the Smart42 and plain old gasoline
> ICE cars don't have.
I don't notice a drop in 20-30 degree weather. Dramatically colder
climates might see different results. I do see a drop in MPG with the A/C
running, whether in the summer to cool the car, or the winter to defrost.
> This particular problem is mitigated by warming the batteries in the same
> way the passenger compartment is warmed. If it's cold outside, you can
> plan on hybrid ICEs running all the time - even in city driving. Same
> thing happens with the batteries get too warm except then they use A/C
> which, again, requires the ICE.
The ICE does not auto-stop when it is cold. I haven't noticed that cause a
drop in the mileage. I think its contribution is small for normal driving.
It might be a plus in congested city traffic, but there I find that the
Honda runs anyway, because it has to get up to 10mph before the auto-stop
is enabled. There is no A/C for the batteries in a Honda. It gets a flow
of air from the passenger compartment, whatever temp that might be.
There is a separate cooling/heating unit in the Escape. I think it is a
separate electric-driven unit, so it doesn't require the ICE to be running.
I can hear it running after the ICE shuts off. I don't know that I would
call it A/C, since it uses coolant and not freon.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
#173
08-10-2005, 01:30 AM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 03:40:21 GMT, "FanJet" <FanJet27@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Gordon McGrew wrote:
>> On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:49:20 GMT, "FanJet" <FanJet27@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> dold@XReXXDarkX.usenet.us.com wrote:
>>>> Steve Bigelow <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How does it compare to the Smart fortwo?
>>>>
>>>> Some Canadians are citing 65mpg on the highway in the smartfortwo,
>>>> which would seem to be 54MPG US.
>>>>
>>>> Canadians are reporting 88MPG highway with the Insight (73 US MPG).
>>>>
>>>> What would a smart car get with a hybrid option?
>>>> An Insight without the hybrid?
>>>
>>> There's no need for a hybrid option but there is a need for the
>>> Smart in the US.
>>
>> Why is there a need for the Smart when you can get better milage out
>> of the gasoline-as-the-onlly-energy-source Insight?
>
>The Smart doesn't consume gasoline and it's very unlikely the Insight gets
>73 US MPG irrespective of conditions.
>
Do you think the Smart gets 54 mpg irrespective of conditions?
wrote:
>Gordon McGrew wrote:
>> On Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:49:20 GMT, "FanJet" <FanJet27@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> dold@XReXXDarkX.usenet.us.com wrote:
>>>> Steve Bigelow <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How does it compare to the Smart fortwo?
>>>>
>>>> Some Canadians are citing 65mpg on the highway in the smartfortwo,
>>>> which would seem to be 54MPG US.
>>>>
>>>> Canadians are reporting 88MPG highway with the Insight (73 US MPG).
>>>>
>>>> What would a smart car get with a hybrid option?
>>>> An Insight without the hybrid?
>>>
>>> There's no need for a hybrid option but there is a need for the
>>> Smart in the US.
>>
>> Why is there a need for the Smart when you can get better milage out
>> of the gasoline-as-the-onlly-energy-source Insight?
>
>The Smart doesn't consume gasoline and it's very unlikely the Insight gets
>73 US MPG irrespective of conditions.
>
Do you think the Smart gets 54 mpg irrespective of conditions?
#174
08-10-2005, 02:21 AM
A couple of Civc NGVs around
In California u can get a Civic NGV and get an NGV home refueling appliance installed to get a low-pressure fill from your house natural gas line. That's good for about 100 mi -- for a complete fill-up you have to go to NGV station. One driver/HOV lane eligible, less pollution, more supply + tax rebate (but fuel not much less $$). But since carpool lane might open to Hybrids it isn't very popular. Plus there isn't much trunk space.
Last edited by abcvtec; 08-10-2005 at 02:22 AM. Reason: missed something
#175
08-10-2005, 12:20 PM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
nospam@nospam.com wrote:
> In California u can get a Civic NGV and get an NGV home refueling
> appliance installed to get a low-pressure fill from your house natural
> gas line. That's good for about 100 mi -- for a complete fill-up you
> have to go to NGV station. One driver/HOV lane eligible, less
> pollution, more supply + tax rebate (but fuel not much less $$). But
> since carpool lane might open to Hybrids it isn't very popular. Plus
> there isn't much trunk space.
The home fueling option is very recent. Prior to that, I can understand
why there was very little market outside government agencies.
There is no natural gas in my area, so it isn't helpful to me.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
> In California u can get a Civic NGV and get an NGV home refueling
> appliance installed to get a low-pressure fill from your house natural
> gas line. That's good for about 100 mi -- for a complete fill-up you
> have to go to NGV station. One driver/HOV lane eligible, less
> pollution, more supply + tax rebate (but fuel not much less $$). But
> since carpool lane might open to Hybrids it isn't very popular. Plus
> there isn't much trunk space.
The home fueling option is very recent. Prior to that, I can understand
why there was very little market outside government agencies.
There is no natural gas in my area, so it isn't helpful to me.
--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley (Lake County) CA USA 38.8,-122.5
#176
08-16-2005, 05:30 AM
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of Hybrid Vehicles
Steve Bigelow wrote:
> "SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:tLudnUzJRulxHmjfRVn-3g@comcast.com...
>
>>FanJet wrote:
>>
>>>I like choice too. Let's bring the smart42 to the US! Considering the
>>>odd popularity and re-sale value of the Mini-Cooper, I'd think the
>>>Smart42 would make dealerships very wealthy indeed.
>>
>>im not too sure, but its worth a shot. the mini is based on an updated
>>"retro" design, and backed by BMW. the smart has no history, and im not
>>sure its even backed by daimler-chrysler in canada. isnt an independant
>>company importing it?
>
>
> Sweet Jesus,...I want this one!
> http://www.motorsm.com/collection/ph...OADSTER_SL.jpg
Looks like a Porsche 914 with a shave and a haircut. ;)
> "SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:tLudnUzJRulxHmjfRVn-3g@comcast.com...
>
>>FanJet wrote:
>>
>>>I like choice too. Let's bring the smart42 to the US! Considering the
>>>odd popularity and re-sale value of the Mini-Cooper, I'd think the
>>>Smart42 would make dealerships very wealthy indeed.
>>
>>im not too sure, but its worth a shot. the mini is based on an updated
>>"retro" design, and backed by BMW. the smart has no history, and im not
>>sure its even backed by daimler-chrysler in canada. isnt an independant
>>company importing it?
>
>
> Sweet Jesus,...I want this one!
> http://www.motorsm.com/collection/ph...OADSTER_SL.jpg
Looks like a Porsche 914 with a shave and a haircut. ;)
#177
02-20-2008, 03:27 AM
That is just ludicrous...so you've never seen a gasoline car break down and die in the middle of traffic with no power?
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