Greddy E-Manage Tuning

[explosivpotato]

Well I'd say with a conservative map and good maintinence you should do fine. My fit is at ~44k, and the turbo has been on there since 3k miles ago, so I can't speak from personal experience, though it's not like we're making a huge amount of power here. There are 200+whp D series motors running well in to the 100's of thousands of miles over at turbod16.com.

One thing you have to consider when turboing a non-turbo motor is how to maintain the car. I use fully synthetic 5w30 or 5w20 depending on which I can get, and a mobil 1 oil filter. I'll be changing before the maintinence minder tells me to, and I always check my oil at every fillup. Turbos get RIDICULOUSLY hot, so having a synthetic oil and keeping it fresh is really important. I can't understand some of the folks who run conventional in an oil-cooled turbo set up. It's cheap insurance against sludging and viscosity break-down.

As long as you keep up on your caretaking, and keep an eye on things that can indicate wear (oil, spark plugs, etc.) I don't see a problem with a turbo'd fit running a couple hundred thousand miles. That seems pretty inline with what the D and B series kids are doing, and a lot of them are using really sh!tty management, like an FMU with no timing adjustment LOL!

[artieman]

Originally Posted by kylerwho

how reliable would you say a turbo is on the fit? would a supercharger be more reliable? im not looking for huge power figures but i do dd my car so that is important to me.

as long as the turbo setup has a good intercooler and the intake air temps arent very high it will be very reliable....one thing that bothers me about superchargers is most dont have heat exchanger anywhere to deal with increased air temps...a lot of high powered supercharged honda's only got where they are due to air to liquid heat exchangers...ANY TIME you compress air no matter how its compressed it will get hot....a turbo or supercharged fit will be very reliable if tuned properly at low boost levels 6-7psi...going 10psi or above you will increase air temp in a linear fashion...there is a lot of horror stories on the web about jackson racing superchargers and a lot of companies out there that make air to water intercoolers for them now....if you live anywhere that has hot summers i would buy an air to water intercooler for the supercharger setups even at low boost...

here is a system used for the miata with with jackson s/c http://www.modacar.com/products/Mazda/Miata/JRAWIC
i would suggest something like this for the fit with the supercharger

also would like to add that 5w20 is a bit thin for turbo setups...i would suggest at least 5w30 or if driving the car hard 10w40...dont run over 10w40 in the fit though...the oiling system is designed to run thinner oil....think of it this way if you had a long tube with holes drilled in it from on end to the other evenly spaced and pumped thin liquid in one end the liquid coming out all the holes would be pretty even...if you had a thick liquid the holes on the far end of the tube would have less coming out then the holes next to the end of the tube your pumpin into...same theory applies to the rails in the head that supply oil.

[explosivpotato]

Yeah I'm running a 5W30 Mobil1 right now, and I'm definitely not going thicker than that this winter. Temps are already getting below freezing, and I can't get my oil to break 180F even on extended highway runs. Not comfortable with that thick of an oil that cold. This summer, though, I'll probably look in to a 5w40, or Castrol's german mix synthetic 0W30 which has viscosity properties just under that of a 40weight at temp (talking cst numbers, not SAE weights). Plus, my oil pressures routinely peg my pressure gauge at 100+ psi when I'm driving around on cold oil (~2500 or 3000 rpm). The fit's oil pump means business man!

Also, THANKS for helping me with my maps. The car runs much smoother in boost now, and I'm getting ridiculous mileage (had to drive ~100 miles for work today, got ~38mpg!). Also, I might be insane, but I think my oil temps are lower. I could swear I was able to hit 200F pretty easily on the highway before, and now I'm lucky if I can break 180F.. Maybe the better timing lowered my EGTs, and therefore my turbo and oil temps? Dunno, alls I know is that artieman's advice is invaluable! If I were anywhere near you I'd gladly drive a few hours to get a tune from you man! Too bad I'm on the wrong side of the country.

[BlueCell]

Tagged for interest. I'll make use of this.

[artieman]

hey explosivpotato check this out....watch the car with big CTR letters on the side...remember that car i said that was making 290whp all motor this was back when it was making less... dont bother going to 209tuners.com i took the site down long ago... heres the link cmi2005.flv - Video - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting was only running 10.60's then if it hooked ill see if i can find some newer vids

[explosivpotato]

Dang 10.60 is a good time! What are you running now? I'd love to see some newer vids if you've got em.

A couple of those races reminded me of my first trip to the track when my Fit had nothing but a CAI and a muffler. I got lined up next to a Fox Body mustang with a CHEVY (¿¿??) big block with something like 500 ci displacement. He was running a 250 shot of nitrous on wrinkle-wall drag slicks and a gutted chassis. That thing ran a 9 flat, spinning the slicks (!!) the first half of the quarter.

I posted a 16.65 that run, I do believe... ...

A buddy of mine took a video of that run. He followed my car the whole run, but you could hear the mustang turning on to the return lane before I even crossed the finish line! That thing sounded like Thor coming to kick your (my) ass.

[artieman]

its running 10.20's now with a tad over 290whp....with the bottle its a low 9 second car...fyi even without the bottle its spinning a good ways down the track....

[quangalang]

Quick question for you guys...
Lets say you hit boost in closed loop, the stock ecu is going to fight your changes keeping stoichiometric fuel ratio. In this situation what can you do with the Emanage ultimate to keep your car from running lean???

[explosivpotato]

Not much you can do, as far as I know. I'm looking in to this actually, there are some analog outputs to play with. For example, you can theoretically make the TPS wire go to 100% when you hit boost, thus making your car hit open loop.

I'm afraid of what that'll do considering the DBW system in our cars.

The REAL solution would be the F-Manage, which intercepts the o2 sensor input to the computer, allowing you to auto-correct to any AFR you want.

[artieman]

Originally Posted by quangalang

Quick question for you guys...
Lets say you hit boost in closed loop, the stock ecu is going to fight your changes keeping stoichiometric fuel ratio. In this situation what can you do with the Emanage ultimate to keep your car from running lean???

the ecu will go to open loop long before you hit boost...ecu only runs closed loop at low load and low rpm...a typical honda ecu only runs closed loop below about 35% throttle and to a max of 750mbar (about 8" of vaccum)...i wouldnt worry about it...you can always hookup a obd2 scanner and watch the ecu go from closed to open loop...my obd2 scanner always me to watch in real time...

[quangalang]

Originally Posted by explosivpotato

Not much you can do, as far as I know. I'm looking in to this actually, there are some analog outputs to play with. For example, you can theoretically make the TPS wire go to 100% when you hit boost, thus making your car hit open loop.

I'm afraid of what that'll do considering the DBW system in our cars.

The REAL solution would be the F-Manage, which intercepts the o2 sensor input to the computer, allowing you to auto-correct to any AFR you want.

yeah pretty much what i thought, the aem F/IC can intercept the O2 signal and let you put in whatever value you want, i guess just like the F-manage???... I didnt know if the Ultimate would have some feature to correct this or not.. thanks for clarifying

Originally Posted by artieman

the ecu will go to open loop long before you hit boost...ecu only runs closed loop at low load and low rpm...a typical honda ecu only runs closed loop below about 35% throttle and to a max of 750mbar (about 8" of vaccum)...i wouldnt worry about it...you can always hookup a obd2 scanner and watch the ecu go from closed to open loop...my obd2 scanner always me to watch in real time...

well i was talking about normal everyday driving under light throttle. can you still be in closed loop while transitioning into positive boost?
ive heard of rsx's running kpro, blowing their motors driving on the freeway under light throttle, because the transition between vaccum and boost wasnt smooth and it took a toll on the motor over time. i know there are other factors that could have contributed to it but idk, im just curious...
can you go into more about the transition from closed loop and open loop? like under what conditions the ecu sees before it switches to open loop?

[artieman]

Originally Posted by quangalang

well i was talking about normal everyday driving under light throttle. can you still be in closed loop while transitioning into positive boost?
ive heard of rsx's running kpro, blowing their motors driving on the freeway under light throttle, because the transition between vaccum and boost wasnt smooth and it took a toll on the motor over time. i know there are other factors that could have contributed to it but idk, im just curious...
can you go into more about the transition from closed loop and open loop? like under what conditions the ecu sees before it switches to open loop?

ecu works off a cross lookup....rpm vs vaccum to boost....light load would be to the left of the map and heavy load would be to the right....as you increase load the cell your running in moves to the right...after moving so far to the right of the map (about 8" of vaccum) the ecu will go open loop....you will be open loop long before you hit boost regardless of rpm...basicly if your even at 0.1lbs of boost your open loop...

those people who had their motors blow should be pissed from a poor tune....

[explosivpotato]

I wish you were right, artieman, but I can watch my scangauge's TPS and loop status readouts, along with my wideband, and I can easily get a steady state of 6psi boost, 75% throttle, closed loop, and AFRs still oscillating around 14.7. If I tip in a little bit more, I can see it shift to open loop around 85% throttle, and my AFRs drop sharply to my tuned values.

I wouldn't believe it, but I can consistently re-create a full boost closed loop situation.

[quangalang]

artieman, i think its more complicated than just saying anything below 8" of vacuum is closed loop and anything above it is open loop...

[artieman]

Originally Posted by explosivpotato

I wish you were right, artieman, but I can watch my scangauge's TPS and loop status readouts, along with my wideband, and I can easily get a steady state of 6psi boost, 75% throttle, closed loop, and AFRs still oscillating around 14.7. If I tip in a little bit more, I can see it shift to open loop around 85% throttle, and my AFRs drop sharply to my tuned values.

I wouldn't believe it, but I can consistently re-create a full boost closed loop situation.

Then honda has redone their coding. All honda ecu's prior to this one ran the same basic code for closed/open loop operation and correction. It seems they have changed it completely with the fit ecu. Ill have to wait to get a full rom dump to be able to see how this ecu is coded.

"I can easily get a steady state of 6psi boost, 75% throttle, closed loop, and AFRs still oscillating around 14.7"
thats scary...i havnt really bothered messing with the ecu since i dont have the turbo kit done yet...i do have the turbo/intercooler/piping/bov/wastegate etc sitting here...looks like i wont be using the stock ecu with a piggy back....have to go full stand alone ecu

Originally Posted by quangalang

artieman, i think its more complicated than just saying anything below 8" of vacuum is closed loop and anything above it is open loop...

It is that easy...above certain mbar (vacuum) they would kick open loop...
example 2005 rsx type s ecu prog opened in kpro...

anything above 80kpa or 800mbar the ecu went open loop...
This is the way honda ecu's have worked for a very long time. Even the old pr* series of obd0 ecu's worked this way. Now I understand why these new ecu's dont take well to upgrades.

[artieman]

JUST AN FYI

i just remembered a supercharged toyota truck i did with a system from a company called split second.
they make a computer system to controll and modify the out signal of the oxygen in closed loop to controll fuel trims...

[artieman]

ESC1 this is the system you can use to controll what the ecu reads off the oxygen and force it to open loop anytime your in boost...cant remember what toyota truck it was anymore...was years ago but i do remember we had to use that box from split second so i could tune it in boost properly...

with a kid on the way (due date dec 8) and starting a new job dec 1 along with remodeling my home i havnt had time to build the turbo manifold yet....been to busy to get the turbo setup done and installed....when i do finally have time and the car has turbo setup i can play with the ecu and see what needs to be done to make it work right....if the stock ecu wont run the motor properly then only option is stand alone....14.7 a/f in boost is scary and dangerous....

[quangalang]

artieman, ive heard of the split second management before, a lot of people have used it with great success in the past... the AEM F/IC is pretty much a newer/better system but kind of the same as the spit second. it has an O2 map where you can change the voltage the ecu sees so it will think it's still running stoich and it wont fight the fuel trims while boosting in closed loop.
man i wish i had the money, time and resource to run a full standalone management.
i should be boosted within a few weeks when im off of school... i everything is in except manifold, turbo and downpipe.
hey youre from los banos not too far from me (modesto) maybe we can work together on some of this stuff!!

[artieman]

Originally Posted by quangalang

artieman, ive heard of the split second management before, a lot of people have used it with great success in the past... the AEM F/IC is pretty much a newer/better system but kind of the same as the spit second. it has an O2 map where you can change the voltage the ecu sees so it will think it's still running stoich and it wont fight the fuel trims while boosting in closed loop.
man i wish i had the money, time and resource to run a full standalone management.
i should be boosted within a few weeks when im off of school... i everything is in except manifold, turbo and downpipe.
hey youre from los banos not too far from me (modesto) maybe we can work together on some of this stuff!!

let me know how i can be of help
i used to work at ctr dynosports on emerald there in modesto....was the tuner for chad for a few years...once you get boosted you can go see chad about getting his 3 pull special on the dyno to see what it makes....i wont be going back to the shop...he owes me a lot of money...

[crashsvg]

hey artieman i have been reading your post on this topic and i must say that i joined this forum because of you,,its always a pleasure to see tuners helping us rookies when it comes to tuning.

now about split second management i believe the greddy e-manage ultimate does the same if you use the airflow output map..ie

'by using a pressure sensor or throttle sensor signal,you can input the airflow signal which would be sent to ecu at each rpm points.this map will provide the ecu airflow meter signal it requires'

i believe this is what greddy wants us to use so that we could make proper a/f adjustments via the injectors map when the car is in closed loop and we wanna adjust our fuel.

i believe this is important for ppl like me whose running a sc where i begin to see boost at 2500-3000 rpm