When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
We've used Mobil 1 on hundreds of cars, some for racing, and every time we put one on the dyno we found the increase in mpg was aroiund 3 to 4%, or 31 instead of 30 mpg. HP was increased too and efven better we found the wear on our engines was much less. For us and those customers synthetic oil wass worth every extra penny. Every teardown and oil analysis has demonstrated good synthetics have less wear and better predictor of longer engine life than conventional oils.
As far as what oil is what, conventional oils are refined from napthenic crude or paraffin crude, (paraffins yield better oil) and cannot be labelled as synthetics. There are part synthetic oils (Castrol?), and fully synthetics. Synthenetics offer increased tear resistance, that is the ability of the lubricant to thin out until it 'tears' thus resulting in metal to metal contact. Thats not so much an additive consequence as it is the base lubricant 'carrier'.
yes, there are a host of additives, and despite Carroll's ads, don't know if Z stuff is advantageous. I have no idea how it would help emissions devices last longer. As for additives that make engines run cooler we have no evidence of that in the lubricants other than reduced friction. Which by the way can be improved by changes to the coolant system with more ease.
I'm also curious why you say GF5 is less performing than GF4. Any reason why?
The less viscous oil an engine can use is of course a reduction in the hp required to operate the oil pump and naturally that leads to better mpg. As for the 'life' of synthetics that misses the point. All oil filters have a limited capacity to retin contaminants filtered from the recirculating oil. All engines generate contaminants from the combustion process as well asincoming dirt and other sources like bearing grease and the real limit to oil life ids that filter. One thing we first noticed here is thed mieage minder didn't seem to know about Fits running in dusty environments or how much water contaminated the oil; it seemed only to know the time and distance that Fit traveled. So we continue to advise synthetic oils are better, Take your pick based on your budget.
That post is almost 2 years old and I barely remember writing it. At the time GF5 oils were just coming out and on M1 website they did not change the label of M1 to GF5 yet. They had the GF5 on the other oil labels. I wont use M1 ever again and if I want a good full synthetic for racing I choose Joe Gibbs,Redline or Eneos. What ever Honda puts in is good enough for me which is a conocophillips brand semi synthetic oil.
Oil filters mostly strain the oil keep the dirt in suspension until they get big enough to be captured by the filter and the filter becomes more efficient over time. You keep talking about water and dirt contamination but you know its the fuel that produces most of the dirt in the motor and that water boils off and the air filter captures most of the other dirt that enters the engine. You can change the oil every 3000 miles if it makes you feel better but its only a waste of money and time. Stop Changing Your Oil! - Edmunds.com
Also there is 30 times less sulfur in the gas so the acids is reduced which acids cause most of the oil break down.
That post is almost 2 years old and I barely remember writing it. At the time GF5 oils were just coming out and on M1 website they did not change the label of M1 to GF5 yet. They had the GF5 on the other oil labels. I wont use M1 ever again and if I want a good full synthetic for racing I choose Joe Gibbs,Redline or Eneos. What ever Honda puts in is good enough for me which is a conocophillips brand semi synthetic oil.
Oil filters mostly strain the oil keep the dirt in suspension until they get big enough to be captured by the filter and the filter becomes more efficient over time. You keep talking about water and dirt contamination but you know its the fuel that produces most of the dirt in the motor and that water boils off and the air filter captures most of the other dirt that enters the engine. You can change the oil every 3000 miles if it makes you feel better but its only a waste of money and time. Stop Changing Your Oil! - Edmunds.com
Also there is 30 times less sulfur in the gas so the acids is reduced which acids cause most of the oil break down.
Oil filters are filters; they do nothing to keep unfiltered contaminants in suspension. There are some additives that do, thank goodness, and keep them from coating out on surfaces that should be clean.
As soon as the contaminants are large enough they are retained by the fiter media and any previously filtered contaminants. As the layer of contaminants increases the fiktration efficiency increases until the pressure drop is so great that no oil passes and the lubrication goes on full bypass, meaning whatever contaminants are in the oil stay there.
Water boils off slowly and is not filtered out though reaction with other components creates more contamination - and corrosion. For those of us that have analyzed lubricants from failed and worn engines we are acutely aware of the results of owners not maintaining their cars. You should follow a dealer trade-in value person some time.
I stand by recommending changing good conventional oils at 3000 miles and good synthetics at 6000 miles. And replacing oil filters every time. The harder or easier you drive your engines the more you need good synthetic oils.
Despite what advertisers say, vehicles are notg maintenance free.
And yes, this argument is actually 50 years old but still needs enlightening regularly. And lots of lubrication engineers had the argument with lots of college professors who never had a dynomometer and engine tear down data; seems they only thought the lubricants never degraded.
Oil filters are filters; they do nothing to keep unfiltered contaminants in suspension. There are some additives that do, thank goodness, and keep them from coating out on surfaces that should be clean.
As soon as the contaminants are large enough they are retained by the fiter media and any previously filtered contaminants. As the layer of contaminants increases the fiktration efficiency increases until the pressure drop is so great that no oil passes and the lubrication goes on full bypass, meaning whatever contaminants are in the oil stay there.
Water boils off slowly and is not filtered out though reaction with other components creates more contamination - and corrosion. For those of us that have analyzed lubricants from failed and worn engines we are acutely aware of the results of owners not maintaining their cars. You should follow a dealer trade-in value person some time.
I stand by recommending changing good conventional oils at 3000 miles and good synthetics at 6000 miles. And replacing oil filters every time. The harder or easier you drive your engines the more you need good synthetic oils.
Despite what advertisers say, vehicles are notg maintenance free.
And yes, this argument is actually 50 years old but still needs enlightening regularly. And lots of lubrication engineers had the argument with lots of college professors who never had a dynomometer and engine tear down data; seems they only thought the lubricants never degraded.
You are describing a bypass filter. Honda recommends 15/20,000 miles on the oil filter. Even regular conventional oil has synthetic parts to it now. Just follow the MM, soon you will have no choice but to follow. I bet the next level is 20,000 miles on the new oils like in Europe.
You are describing a bypass filter. Honda recommends 15/20,000 miles on the oil filter. Even regular conventional oil has synthetic parts to it now. Just follow the MM, soon you will have no choice but to follow. I bet the next level is 20,000 miles on the new oils like in Europe.
No such thing as a filter in the bypass circuit. All oil filters have either built in bypasses or the manufacturer provides it in his lubrication system. Without that, when the filter pressure drop gets high the flow of oil to the engine is reduced to the point that bearings, cams etc will fail.
I'm curious where you get your info that even conventional oils have synthetic components; my old cohorts in the petroleum labs aren't aware of that. And just how do think there will be no choice but following the mileage minder? Or that 20,000 miles between oil changes is normal in Europe?
By-pass Filter --> a seperate, low micron filter routed generally as a T junction just past the oil sending unit.
By-pass Valve --> a valve inside a filter (an oil filter) that opens to allow unrestricted (unfiltered) oil flow in the event that the filter membrane is completely clogged with physical contaminants from the oil
Last edited by Sloppy_Snood; 12-30-2012 at 12:55 PM.
No such thing as a filter in the bypass circuit. All oil filters have either built in bypasses or the manufacturer provides it in his lubrication system. Without that, when the filter pressure drop gets high the flow of oil to the engine is reduced to the point that bearings, cams etc will fail.
I'm curious where you get your info that even conventional oils have synthetic components; my old cohorts in the petroleum labs aren't aware of that. And just how do think there will be no choice but following the mileage minder? Or that 20,000 miles between oil changes is normal in Europe?
A bypass filter filters 10 to 1 microns which is the micron level that does all the damage. A full flow filter filters 30 to 40 microns and eventually filters down but at a certain point it bypasses the filter because the pressure in not high enough. If you put that bypass filter where the full flow filter you would damage the engine.
The 3000 mile oil change is a thing of the past but 10,000 is the limit depending on conditions. I think 5000/7500 is more reasonable. At my work I have a new truck and they were not going to change the oil till 12,500 miles but I read the manual and it said 500 hours or 2000 gallons of fuel or 12,500 miles. I complained and they are finally doing oil samples. It was my idea but I did not get credit for that but the mechanics know it was because of me. I am glad and I dont have to worry about the maintenance since I am the only one that drives it if the engine fails. Maintenance is part of the pretrip so it falls into my lap if something goes wrong especially since I am the only driver. Before I shared a truck which even then at 25000 miles at 500 hours it burned oil. We would put on 150000 miles a year.
BTW, I only drive 15000 mile of city driving a year with about 60 engine starts a day and all in city driving. Engine time a day is 4-5 hours so you see 12,000 miles would be over 1000 hours.
Last edited by SilverBullet; 12-30-2012 at 11:06 PM.
I have about 4200 miles and still at 50%; have not done first change yet...
I'm in this camp. I'm at 50% with 6500 miles and haven't changed yet. Getting 40 mpg and not going over 65mph on my 100 mile commute. I'm having trouble waiting for 15% and will change it soon.
BTW, my dad has been a chemist at Chevron for 30 years and has said for a long time that the 3k interval is just to sell you more oil...
That is very good mpg and I would wait till 15 percent on the MM. Your dad would know since he works with Chevron and probably does tests for Honda since they are in San Diego. 100 mile commutes is very easy on oil and that is proven by 6500 miles at 50 percent.
You are describing a bypass filter. Honda recommends 15/20,000 miles on the oil filter. Even regular conventional oil has synthetic parts to it now. Just follow the MM, soon you will have no choice but to follow. I bet the next level is 20,000 miles on the new oils like in Europe.
Not exactly, although today's conventional oil is far more advanced and closing the gap closer into synthetics as far as performance of yesteryear's it doesnt really have any synthetics components other then being very well refined. Even some so called "synthetics" are nothing more then highly refined conventional oil with some robust additives.
No such thing as a filter in the bypass circuit. All oil filters have either built in bypasses or the manufacturer provides it in his lubrication system. Without that, when the filter pressure drop gets high the flow of oil to the engine is reduced to the point that bearings, cams etc will fail.
I'm curious where you get your info that even conventional oils have synthetic components; my old cohorts in the petroleum labs aren't aware of that. And just how do think there will be no choice but following the mileage minder? Or that 20,000 miles between oil changes is normal in Europe?
what makes synthetic synthetic and conventional conventional then?
(Not to get into this too much on basestocks and the such, as this is the of advertising lawsuits). Search on the internets and read all the arguments on synthetic vs conventional.
it's not like "organic" food where they say this is the freshest oil picked fresh from Saudi Arabia Farms, with no hormones or preservatives and shipped directly from you from our protected artisan oil spring.
All this stuff is chemically processed and engineered, and yes they blend in some chemicals and other basestocks and so on. Why should recycled dinosaurs be better or worse than recycled chemicals or recycled oil for that matter. It all can be fixed and adjusted during the chemical engineering process.
Oils marketed as "synthetics" go through the same processes too and have a big chunk of the same basestock, so yes you can claim both statements
1) conventional oil has synthetic components
2) "conventional oil" has components of "synthetic oils"
what makes synthetic synthetic and conventional conventional then?
1) conventional oil has synthetic components
2) "conventional oil" has components of "synthetic oils"
There are basically 3 types of lubricant base stocks. the first, and best conventional oil, is paraffin based. Paraffin based oils are predominantly single chain hydrocarbons, meaning no double bonds. Second is napthenic based oils which are prtedominantly double bonded or cyclic carbon rings. Their lubricating qualities are not as good as paraffin based and are chiefy used in less costly oils. Third is the synthetic based lubricants, primarily polyesters but there are others, that are produced by chemical reactions not by purification.. That is generally not the case with conventional oils, hydrocracking to smaller carbon chains is not a real chemical reaction. While both conventional oils have some of the other in their chemical compostion, real synthetics have little if any conventional oil in their comoposition but all 3 have a wide variety of component chemicals. Synthetics were developed for high altitude aviation use required for cold weather engine operations. Its not unusual for crudes to have dozens of chemicals but synthetics only a half dozen or so. Refineries adjust processing conditions depending on the composition of the crude, especially when switching from paraffin to napthene base feedstock. Synthetics are better lubricants not only because they have stronger chemical bonds but because they are harder to break down into smaller 'molecules' aand thus offer superior resistance to thinning out under pressure and last longer. Conventional oils are very prone to temperature and pressure degradation and contaminants hasten that breakdown. That breakdown is easily measured by the reduction in viscosity. And for a long time putting fresh conventional oils to maximum engine performance was a high risk of engine lubrication failure. Most manufacturers tended to offer viscosity oils higher than their designation in order for the oil to last longer. Back in the old days you had to change oil and filter after every race. nd when going 600 miles or more you had to matcgh engine performance with oil longevity. The deteriorization of synthetics comes as a result of contaminants introduced into the lubricant stream and those effects on the interior metals, gaskets, and seals than needs theikr filtration. Along with the limited capacity of oil filters to capture and retain those contaminants, its advisable to change filters - and oil - at 3000 miles for conventional oils and 6000 for synthetics. Its not that you can't go longer but the longer you go the quicker the odds stack against you. Cheers. Class dismissed. PS any advancements inconventional oils are primarily the result of additives. (like PetRocks if yo're old enough to rember that ad.)
ok, all of that may have been true about 10years ago, when things were simpler but no longer.
It's just all semantics now that mainly get argued over on BITOG on which oil comes with which basestocks and the like
Just 1 more comment. Since GF5 oils came out, Semi synthetics have disappeared at least from Mobil. If you use at least Honda oil you can go up to 12000 depending on the engine and conditions. I wont go past 7500 miles because that is my comfort level. Honda now requires 0w20 which is a full synthetic but possibly semi-synthetic but papers on that are not available. Group II oils are close to full synthetic 99 percent saturated and with the proper high detergent fuel also helps extends the oil too.
Here is a video of a car with 135000 and the oil changed only 2-3 times.
Semi-synthetic or synthetic blend are kind of dumb marketing designations in order to raise the price. Valvoline is the king of inventing new "types" of oil. First it was High Mileage, then Synthetic Blend and now Semi Recycled (or whatever they call it, in the green bottle). Conoco calls all of its conventional oils (76, Kendall, Motorcraft, Phillips) synthetic blends because technically the are. Everyone blends Group II with synthetic correction fluid to meet current standards, especially for 5W-20.
"Second is napthenic based oils which are prtedominantly double bonded or cyclic carbon rings. Their lubricating qualities are not as good as paraffin based and are chiefy used in less costly oils."
In the middle of the 20th century. Solvent refined paraffinics (Group I) took over that role a very long time ago. Group I motor oil is now primarily used in developing regions of the world. Napthenics on the other hand, have an important place. Gear oils are virtually all napthenic for a very good reason, solvency. The volume of additives needed for a GL-5 gear oil is huge and wont dissolve in paraffinic base oil. Since gear oils arent exposed to the high temperatures in an engine, this works just fine.
Semi-synthetic or synthetic blend are kind of dumb marketing designations in order to raise the price. Valvoline is the king of inventing new "types" of oil. First it was High Mileage, then Synthetic Blend and now Semi Recycled (or whatever they call it, in the green bottle). Conoco calls all of its conventional oils (76, Kendall, Motorcraft, Phillips) synthetic blends because technically the are. Everyone blends Group II with synthetic correction fluid to meet current standards, especially for 5W-20.
"Second is napthenic based oils which are prtedominantly double bonded or cyclic carbon rings. Their lubricating qualities are not as good as paraffin based and are chiefy used in less costly oils."
In the middle of the 20th century. Solvent refined paraffinics (Group I) took over that role a very long time ago. Group I motor oil is now primarily used in developing regions of the world. Napthenics on the other hand, have an important place. Gear oils are virtually all napthenic for a very good reason, solvency. The volume of additives needed for a GL-5 gear oil is huge and wont dissolve in paraffinic base oil. Since gear oils arent exposed to the high temperatures in an engine, this works just fine.
Thank you for the info. I always learn something when you post. You should have started the oil thread way back when.
For the first time at 1500 miles . Metal has worn off while mating surfaces were established, and those metal scraps need to be removed from the engine before they cause long-term damage.
For what it's worth, I don't think it really matters too much, especially not for our low power Honda motors. When I bought my Fit the previous owner had put Oriley's 5w20 conventional into it; here's how it tested at ~7500 miles for curiosities sake
Obviously I put better oil in my car but FWIW I've always been of the opinion if you change your oil regularly you don't really need to spend big on oil unless your motor is modified.
I used to think frequent oil & filter changes were much more important than oil type. But my thinking has changed a bit with VVT engines.
On other (non-Honda) cars, we found switching to full synthetic keeps the VVT systems cleaner and quieter. We tried full synthetic as a last hope to avoid changing cam phasers that caused some tapping at start up in the winter; it worked.
My neighbor has the same VVT car as we do. He always ran Mobil 1 full synthetic. We always ran conventional oil. His engine has 50k more miles but is significantly cleaner and quieter.
For basic old pushrod engines, I don't think the full synthetic oil has such a big advantage. But full synthetic generally has better lubricating and lifespan. The price difference is small for DIY oil changes.
12-28-2012, 09:54 PM
