You'll get a different quality valve adjustment from every tech. Using feeler gauges is a bit of an art form and what one person considers too tight or too loose might seem just fine to another. I'd ask for a tech with experience since the valve adjustment procedure is similar between most new hondas.

snapped off bolt?
 

hmmmm.....not sure how this could happen IF the service manual procedure was followed exactly.

The manual procedure calls for first loosening all 16 of the valve clearance adjusting screws. Then loosening these 11 rocker arm assembly bolts.........in a specified sequence........and........by no more than two turns at a time. That would probably mean a few times through the entire sequence. By hand. And slow. As Honda obviously intends.

I'd be inclined to think he used an air ratchet.....fast...not what Honda intends.....and also wonder how he got the broken bolt out of the head.

geo

The guy probably forgot to change the direction on the impact wrench and threw 120 lbs on that tiny bolt... snapping it off in an instant.

For those casting doubt on the tech's procedure do you think it's completely impossible that Honda could have assembled an engine with defective parts?

Oh wait...isn't that EXACTLY why the recall 11-010 was issued? Faulty internal parts?

...and he used a spring punch to unscrew the shaft of the bolt. Not sure how easy that would be if the "he probably had the ratchet on tighten" theory was true.

I really love Honda and all, but working at a dealership exposes some of the ugly underbellies of brand new cars.

BTW my Fit has a slightly off centered steering wheel, and it's brand new. My 2005 Element had a total crap alignment from the factory - I personally aligned it properly because it too had an off centered steering wheel from the factory.

I wrote up a 2011 Civic with 2400 miles on it for a recall that deals with a roll over valve for the fuel pump assembly.

Point is Honda realized that the LMA springs could pose a serious problem, and if you think bolts cannot be defective, or even be cross threaded in from the factory I'd tend to disagree.

Then again this is an overwhelmingly "bash your local Honda dealer" topic so forgive me for injecting "the other side" of the coin.

I think this illustrates my point very well......which is....that the recall is NOT supposed to be done with "the tech's procedure." It is supposed to be done, by explicit instructions, with Honda's procedures.

As far as defective parts...of course there is the LMS recall. Those who have poked into the numbers realize that the recall was triggered by less than 100 actual spring failures in millions of GE8s worldwide....statistically miniscule to many of us but not to the obsessive Japanese. As somebody else reported, they are now collecting the LMS springs which have been replaced. Why?? I'll bet every single one is getting microscopically examined.

The broken bolt?? Personally I'm much more inclined to think it was because of a creative tech using a non-Honda procedure or a different tool.

When it comes to Honda engine internals, I'll trust the procedures written by the Honda engineers.

geo

I kinda doubt that...'cause if he was using an air ratchet to speed up the job, he'd more than likely be using a 1/4" drive. They aren't that strong.

This is almost pure speculation but I can imagine how a bolt could be broken. Remember that the rockers are not bolted to the head individually. There are 11 bolts through the rocker arm bridge, which has all the rockers, spacers, etc assembled on the shaft.

When the rocker assembly is bolted down and the valve clearances are adjusted properly, there are some strong opposing forces involved. Several valve springs are pushing the whole assembly up, and the 11 bolts are holding it down. IF a technician skips the preliminary step to back off all 16 valve clearance adjusters, and goes straight to zipping out the rocker bridge bolts with an air ratchet, then there will be a time when all the valve springs which are compressed will be pushing up against a single bolt. Can several valve springs overpower the last single bolt? I'd guess yes. snap.

I think this is why the Honda procedure says to first slack off all 16 valve clearance adjusters (takes all the valve spring pressure off the whole assembly), and to loosen the rocker assembly hold-down bolts in specified sequence and only 2 turns at a time.

FWIW

geo

It only illustrates that you are reading into my choice of words. I said "tech's procedure" meaning the way the tech performs the recall. I didn't say the tech was doing it "his own way" or "contrary to Honda's procedure." Having said that it's not uncommon for techs to find "shortcuts" to perform different jobs.

There was a VTC actuator recall that Honda initially paid "x amount" of time and had a bunch of unnecessary, BS steps to complete when doing the recall. Enough techs found an easier, more efficient way and guess what? Honda revised their procedure and slashed the already low amount of paid warranty time to do the job.

If you search around there are techs working at Honda dealerships that have stated that the recall work can be performed without removing the cowling/wipers, which would seem to cut the reported complaints easily in half since more "my plastic cowling didn't fit right after the recall" are being posted than "my engine was noisier" issues.

This recall pays just 1.6 hours. If you were getting paid 1.6 hours to complete such a task (when other jobs being done by the guy next to you can pay 7 hours while taking 2 to complete) you might try to take "shortcuts" or "work more efficiently" too. I haven't seen/heard any techs at my dealership talking about any great "shortcuts" nor being able to do it without removing the wipers and cowling, but give techs long enough and they find ways to be more efficient/proficient at certain tasks.

;)

Having said that it's not as if I have the time to sit there and watch the recall work being performed. I rarely have time to take a piss, eat lunch, or call my wife to ask "what's for dinner" because I stay too busy with writing service/advising customers. The particular tech involved in the broken bolt happened to be one of the best, most experienced techs in the Atlanta area. I don't expect you to take my word on it though.

Sorry if I read more than you intended.....as I've posted here before, (a) I've looked at my own car pretty closely and can possibly see how the LMS replacement could be done without removing the cowl. That might prevent a lot of what I consider to be relatively minor issues related to clips and wipers. I'm not sure it would save a lot of time, however, when I think about resetting the backside valve clearances with boxend wrench, screwdriver, and feeler gauge all in hand at the same time. My face needs to be where it can't get to. Maybe an octopus can do it but I'd worry about the valve clearances. (b) 1.6 hours is indeed way short of the real-world of the American Honda techs. It's okay for experienced factory assembly techs...that's likely where they got the number....and you can bet the engine is assembled with plenty of room. We are agreeing on both these points.

If there's a way to get feedback to Honda on the time allowed, it needs to be done. And the Japanese are always looking for ways to do things smarter and faster, as you well know. IF it also improves quality. I doubt there will be any positive response on the pay issue. Your example of the guy getting paid 1.6hr for a job that obviously takes longer to do correctly, while the guy next to him gets paid 7hr for 2hr work, is something we've done to ourselves. It's that kind of workplace environment which pushes techs to sacrifice quality for speed...and it's why I'd strongly prefer to do this LMS thing myself.

While I find the Honda manuals to be extremely well written as far as procedures, they do not often explain WHY a certain procedure must be followed exactly. If the American tech does not have the understanding of the Honda engineer, and is not told WHY then it appears to be time-wasting BS but just might be very important. Especially inside the engine.

geo

Last Update from OP
 

I just updated my original post that started this thread, now eleven long pages ago, with the following. Thank you to all of you out there for posting useful information and making this thread a valuable resource for other Fit owners.

UPDATE 04/09/2011: We picked up the two cars with new cowls yesterday afternoon. Everything looks and works great based on initial inspection. One of the Fits had developed a very, very slight tick-tick sound when running for the first minute or so after a cold start. I asked the dealer to note it and have a trusted tech give it a listen after they had let the car sit overnight. I didn't push for or demand a valve adjustment, but I think the service manager could easily sense that I was a lot more concerned about being able to trust the valve work over the long haul than I was with the visible cowl issues. Anyway, he chose to have his "best tech" do a valve adjustment on both cars and the service write-ups show 1.6 and 1.9 hours for valve adjustment on the two Fits. Both cars sound good, but final judgment will be after the engines have gone through several heat/cool cycles.

Through this process, I've been much more concerned about having confidence in the engine work than the plastic. However, the cowl pieces now show that someone took care to do the job right. The plastic pieces line up nicely and everything is clean and new looking (no car wash though - these Fits only get hand washed). Based on that, plus the dealer redoing the valve adjustment, I no longer have a lingering doubt that the engine work was as much of a hack job as the original cowls and wipers.

This shouldn't have happened in the first place, but I'm happy with the way the service manager handled the issue.

UPDATE 04/09/2011, later that same day....
It's car washing day which led to finding one more thing to watch for. When you open the hood, there are four black rubber bumpers that the hood should rest on when its closed (they look like upside-down rubber stoppers for a flask). I discovered one of those was missing, probably knocked loose by the service tech leaning over the front of the car. Fortunately, it was lying in a recess in the upper grill housing so I could just press it back in place.

In this photo, the bumpers are circled. The one closest to the square was lying in the square:

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/8911/bumperv.jpg

Problems now, 1 week later, intermittent check engine light!
 

Got my 2010 Base Fit recall-adj'd about a week ago, and now the Check Engine light now comes on and off intermittently. Didn't take it back to dealer right away 'cause I thot it was that gas cap not being tightened thing, but now it's obvious it's not...
Mechanics did something wrong, 'cause it wasn't like that prior to the recall adj. So back it goes this coming Monday morning, with another 1/2 day wasted waiting around for this engine thing to be cleared up....! :mad:

Chazzlee

Sorry to hear that.

I am not sure that I can request only parts and I can do it myself. I am kind of scary to see issues after the recall.

REPS TO THIS MAN. So many useful pics/posts. Just went and checked, mine are in tact. Thanks again.

Apparently they did not order enough parts to replace the affected areas of the cowl, so now I'll be back for a third trip. Driver's side wiper cowl piece was so loose it flew off from a car wash blower today...nice.
The service manager and tech poked around under the hood just lookin for stuff to order/replace, definitely trying to make it right so far.

I did mention/complain that this ordeal so far has taken 2-3 trips to the dealer, and they offered to come pick the car up from my place of employment while I work on Tuesday (or a rental for the day). Not bad! Just hope they can get the injectors to quiet down a bit.

Great thread. I have some issues after the recall too. My wiper nozzles are aimed wrong, but more importantly my engine sounds different. Less refined and more sewing machine like. I also had checked the oil and it was way over filled.

Just got mine back yesterday. I feel like there's more valve ringing/clatter around 2000-3500 RPM when accelerating. It does sound a little "sewing machine-ish" at idle but this little engine kind of always has sounded like that to me, and it's only audible if I'm right there with the hood open. Any opinions?

My personal opinion (which is worth bubkus) is that some fits are prone to this "sewing machine tapping noise" with or without the recall. If you're like me, you probably didn't listen to the engine very closely prior to the recall and now you're all ears. So it's impossible to say if the sound is new--or worse than before.

Given that, and absent other symptoms, such as rough idle or reduced mileage, the best thing you and I can do is to pop as many hoods of fits we can find, take a listen, and determine if our fits sound unusual. For me that is not practical since I don't have friends that own fits and I'm not about to approach strangers in parking lots and ask them to listen to their car engines.

So I am going to go to my dealer and ask the tech to listen to it and also to start up a demo and pop the hood to at least satisfy my curiosity. Unfortunately I have an ongoing family medical crisis right now so this will have to wait it's turn.

I think I was one of those that really didn't listen to the engine ahead of time. I've been able to tell by sound when a Honda starts up but probably not well enough to notice any major problems. That, along with me reading the paraonia thread and the fit went back to the dealer for... well... probably no good reason.

Know... Best of luck with the family issues. We've dealt with a number of things over the last year and I'm ready for it to stop. A number of things got dropped off of the "to do" list. Good luck and from our family to yours, hope all gets better.

~SB

One of our '09 Fits has always been a bit noisier than the other, before and after the recall work. That same very slight valve ringing/clatter on acceleration you mentioned. So based on that, they do vary and I wouldn't worry about it. I think a more distinct tick-tick or tap-tap (or tick-tap :)) sound would be of more concern as a signal of a possible valvetrain adjustment issue or maybe an injector.

I mentioned a few posts ago that after the recall work one of our Fits (the noisier one) had a very slight tick-tick sound for the first minute or so after a cold start. After the dealer redid the valve adjustment, I don't notice that cold start tick-tick any more. However, if anything, the very slight valve ringing/clatter when accelerating might be a bit greater. I feel confident that the valves are now adjusted to spec on that car so I'm not going to worry about the small noises I hear if I listen closely. The noises are all miniscule compared with many other cars on the road.

Doubt that, these are more likely being collected to get credit back from their supplier. Also knowing the purchasing strength of Honda, they are collecting to document the number of recalls performed. The supplier will share in the recall labor costs if they ever want to sell to Honda again.

Good idea. The Fit doesn't have the quietest engine to begin with. Actually I would prefer to hear a little valve noise than not. An overly tight valve clearance will be quiet but has the potential to cause serious engine damage. A slightly loose clearance may cause some noise but no damage.

_