Do I stay or do I go... Timing chain/fuel injectors
Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,631
From: California
The fuel quality is a big part, also how you drive it. Most Fits are city cars, where they're driven very little and not very hard. Those get carbon buildup the worst. You don't see it as badly on higher mileage cars (of course with the caveat of fuel quality as you mentioned). My 15 is closing in on 100k. Gonna have to pull the manifold off and walnut blast it soon. I'll try to remember to take before and after pics. Mine is driven ~20-30 miles a day and sees a lot of spirited driving. Oil has always been golden brown, but I change it every 3k on the dot (overkill, but I get my oil for free). I would definitely second avoiding extended oil changes on anything with direct injection. I wouldn't even use the oil life monitor, I'd just do it every 4-5k.
The GD3 and GE8 used good old port injection (far better than direct injection for 99% of daily uses), so the carbon buildup is pretty unique to the GK5s. With port injection, the fuel washes the intake valves off, preventing excess carbon buildup, even if you run shitty fuel. Direct injection definitely requires more care to be taken with preventative maintenance. And in this case, buying top tier fuel IS preventative maintenance.
Timing chains are also more sensitive to oil quality than belts. Extended oil change intervals will cause premature failure. A chain should go 250-300k minimum before needing replacement if properly maintained and good quality guides and tensioners are used. For example, I had a 2009 Mazdaspeed 3. The guides in those were known to fail around 150k just due to bad design. Sold mine at ~160k with a bit of slop in the chain. On the other hand, I had a 2002 Subaru Outback with the EZ30D H6 where I replaced the original chain at 268k. That's much more in line with what I'd expect if the oil was changed when it should've been. And yeah, chains are expensive. The parts for the Subaru alone were $5-600 for OEM parts (it's a pain to get to, I wasn't gonna chance aftermarket parts) and required a lot of teardown to access. Book time is probably 8-10 hours, which will add another $1000-1500 to the bill. Granted chains are much easier to access on Hondas, and it's more like a 4-6 hour job. Still not cheap tho. Another thing to keep in mind is that basically all direct injection engines suffer from oil dilution in some quantity. This is probably what they meant.
Given both of these are happening at the same time, replacement may be the more feasible option. Just pay very close attention to the service history on whatever you buy next (unless you buy new, in which case always use the severe service interval as your baseline for maintenance).
The GD3 and GE8 used good old port injection (far better than direct injection for 99% of daily uses), so the carbon buildup is pretty unique to the GK5s. With port injection, the fuel washes the intake valves off, preventing excess carbon buildup, even if you run shitty fuel. Direct injection definitely requires more care to be taken with preventative maintenance. And in this case, buying top tier fuel IS preventative maintenance.
Timing chains are also more sensitive to oil quality than belts. Extended oil change intervals will cause premature failure. A chain should go 250-300k minimum before needing replacement if properly maintained and good quality guides and tensioners are used. For example, I had a 2009 Mazdaspeed 3. The guides in those were known to fail around 150k just due to bad design. Sold mine at ~160k with a bit of slop in the chain. On the other hand, I had a 2002 Subaru Outback with the EZ30D H6 where I replaced the original chain at 268k. That's much more in line with what I'd expect if the oil was changed when it should've been. And yeah, chains are expensive. The parts for the Subaru alone were $5-600 for OEM parts (it's a pain to get to, I wasn't gonna chance aftermarket parts) and required a lot of teardown to access. Book time is probably 8-10 hours, which will add another $1000-1500 to the bill. Granted chains are much easier to access on Hondas, and it's more like a 4-6 hour job. Still not cheap tho. Another thing to keep in mind is that basically all direct injection engines suffer from oil dilution in some quantity. This is probably what they meant.
Given both of these are happening at the same time, replacement may be the more feasible option. Just pay very close attention to the service history on whatever you buy next (unless you buy new, in which case always use the severe service interval as your baseline for maintenance).
One would wonder how the efficiency increase from direct injection compares to the carbon cost of the replacement parts that seem to be more likely to be needed, or the whole new car someone might buy earlier due to DI issues.
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,500
From: New York
Modern engines are vastly different from those of old cars.
Member
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 125
From: Silver Spring, MD
Nonsense. Car lovers who don't mindlessly abide by advice that was relevant in 1950 follow instructions and recommendations from experts. Changing the oil every 3000 miles isn't just a waste of time and money, it's also a waste of oil and not the best for the environment, even if you do what you're supposed to do and recycle it.
Modern engines are vastly different from those of old cars.
Modern engines are vastly different from those of old cars.
Member
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 695
From: Vancouver
It's not. Especially when modern engines are controlled or augmented by components that are very sensitive to oil condition and direct injection causes the oil to get diluted much more. Extended oil changes do not work for 95% of people. It will rack up higher repair bills than you'll save on maintenance unless you're part of that 5% who has the necessary circumstances and diligence to make it work. I've seen the results of enough extended oil changes firsthand to know better than to dismiss it as myth. And if you actually read the owner's manual on most cars, the average person falla under the "severe service" interval which is almost always 5k max.
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,500
From: New York
I disagree, for several reasons:
1. I don't see severe service in the manual. It does say that if you drive in dusty areas to replace the air filters more often. But the other stuff that used to be considered severe service- short drives, not giving the car a chance to warm up, etc.- is all stuff that the maintenance minder knows. If you drive a mile every two hours the car's computer probably takes this into account when deciding when it's time for an oil change.
2. Economics. In just 100,000 miles, if you change your oil every 10,000 miles that's ten oil changes. If you do it every 5,000 miles that's twenty oil changes.
Ten extra oil changes in 100,000 miles. It costs me about $25 to change my oil myself (I don't know what a mechanic or dealer charges since I've never paid anyone else to do it, and that's over close to half a million miles of driving). So that's $250. You say it's a 5% chance of a problem? That's an expected value of $5000. Does it cost $5000 to fix whatever might go wrong? And I'm not even taking into account that if something does go wrong in the first 36,000 miles, that's Honda's cost, not yours. So really the calculation should be 136,000 miles, which means 3 more oil changes. Bringing the E.V. to $6,500.
3. I doubt your 5% number. Where did you get it from? I think if 5% of Fits required engine work before 100,000 miles it'd be newsworthy. Even back in the seventies, when cars broke all the time, it wasn't usually engines that failed before 100,000 miles. It was alternators, starter motors, carburetors, water pumps, mufflers, bodies rusting out, stuff like that.
I think it's pretty rare to need engine work, and if you do there's no proof that it's infrequent oil changes that caused it. I'll stick with what Honda engineers say and I'll take my chances. (with two caveats- I don't wait for the MM to go to zero because I have to change my oil outside, so I take whatever warm, dry, not-windy day when I have the time to do it, and the other caveat is that I change the filter every oil change even though Honda says it's not necessary, because I figure why not?)
1. I don't see severe service in the manual. It does say that if you drive in dusty areas to replace the air filters more often. But the other stuff that used to be considered severe service- short drives, not giving the car a chance to warm up, etc.- is all stuff that the maintenance minder knows. If you drive a mile every two hours the car's computer probably takes this into account when deciding when it's time for an oil change.
2. Economics. In just 100,000 miles, if you change your oil every 10,000 miles that's ten oil changes. If you do it every 5,000 miles that's twenty oil changes.
Ten extra oil changes in 100,000 miles. It costs me about $25 to change my oil myself (I don't know what a mechanic or dealer charges since I've never paid anyone else to do it, and that's over close to half a million miles of driving). So that's $250. You say it's a 5% chance of a problem? That's an expected value of $5000. Does it cost $5000 to fix whatever might go wrong? And I'm not even taking into account that if something does go wrong in the first 36,000 miles, that's Honda's cost, not yours. So really the calculation should be 136,000 miles, which means 3 more oil changes. Bringing the E.V. to $6,500.
3. I doubt your 5% number. Where did you get it from? I think if 5% of Fits required engine work before 100,000 miles it'd be newsworthy. Even back in the seventies, when cars broke all the time, it wasn't usually engines that failed before 100,000 miles. It was alternators, starter motors, carburetors, water pumps, mufflers, bodies rusting out, stuff like that.
I think it's pretty rare to need engine work, and if you do there's no proof that it's infrequent oil changes that caused it. I'll stick with what Honda engineers say and I'll take my chances. (with two caveats- I don't wait for the MM to go to zero because I have to change my oil outside, so I take whatever warm, dry, not-windy day when I have the time to do it, and the other caveat is that I change the filter every oil change even though Honda says it's not necessary, because I figure why not?)
Member
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 125
From: Silver Spring, MD
I disagree, for several reasons:
1. I don't see severe service in the manual. It does say that if you drive in dusty areas to replace the air filters more often. But the other stuff that used to be considered severe service- short drives, not giving the car a chance to warm up, etc.- is all stuff that the maintenance minder knows. If you drive a mile every two hours the car's computer probably takes this into account when deciding when it's time for an oil change.
2. Economics. In just 100,000 miles, if you change your oil every 10,000 miles that's ten oil changes. If you do it every 5,000 miles that's twenty oil changes.
Ten extra oil changes in 100,000 miles. It costs me about $25 to change my oil myself (I don't know what a mechanic or dealer charges since I've never paid anyone else to do it, and that's over close to half a million miles of driving). So that's $250. You say it's a 5% chance of a problem? That's an expected value of $5000. Does it cost $5000 to fix whatever might go wrong? And I'm not even taking into account that if something does go wrong in the first 36,000 miles, that's Honda's cost, not yours. So really the calculation should be 136,000 miles, which means 3 more oil changes. Bringing the E.V. to $6,500.
3. I doubt your 5% number. Where did you get it from? I think if 5% of Fits required engine work before 100,000 miles it'd be newsworthy. Even back in the seventies, when cars broke all the time, it wasn't usually engines that failed before 100,000 miles. It was alternators, starter motors, carburetors, water pumps, mufflers, bodies rusting out, stuff like that.
I think it's pretty rare to need engine work, and if you do there's no proof that it's infrequent oil changes that caused it. I'll stick with what Honda engineers say and I'll take my chances. (with two caveats- I don't wait for the MM to go to zero because I have to change my oil outside, so I take whatever warm, dry, not-windy day when I have the time to do it, and the other caveat is that I change the filter every oil change even though Honda says it's not necessary, because I figure why not?)
1. I don't see severe service in the manual. It does say that if you drive in dusty areas to replace the air filters more often. But the other stuff that used to be considered severe service- short drives, not giving the car a chance to warm up, etc.- is all stuff that the maintenance minder knows. If you drive a mile every two hours the car's computer probably takes this into account when deciding when it's time for an oil change.
2. Economics. In just 100,000 miles, if you change your oil every 10,000 miles that's ten oil changes. If you do it every 5,000 miles that's twenty oil changes.
Ten extra oil changes in 100,000 miles. It costs me about $25 to change my oil myself (I don't know what a mechanic or dealer charges since I've never paid anyone else to do it, and that's over close to half a million miles of driving). So that's $250. You say it's a 5% chance of a problem? That's an expected value of $5000. Does it cost $5000 to fix whatever might go wrong? And I'm not even taking into account that if something does go wrong in the first 36,000 miles, that's Honda's cost, not yours. So really the calculation should be 136,000 miles, which means 3 more oil changes. Bringing the E.V. to $6,500.
3. I doubt your 5% number. Where did you get it from? I think if 5% of Fits required engine work before 100,000 miles it'd be newsworthy. Even back in the seventies, when cars broke all the time, it wasn't usually engines that failed before 100,000 miles. It was alternators, starter motors, carburetors, water pumps, mufflers, bodies rusting out, stuff like that.
I think it's pretty rare to need engine work, and if you do there's no proof that it's infrequent oil changes that caused it. I'll stick with what Honda engineers say and I'll take my chances. (with two caveats- I don't wait for the MM to go to zero because I have to change my oil outside, so I take whatever warm, dry, not-windy day when I have the time to do it, and the other caveat is that I change the filter every oil change even though Honda says it's not necessary, because I figure why not?)
Member
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,500
From: New York
Where do you work?
Here's the thing with statistics- it's complicated. If you're a mechanic and you recommend 5k oil change intervals, that's what most of your customers may do. That's not a representative sample.
I would expect most people to follow the owner's manual's recommendations, especially when it's effortless to wait until the car says to change the oil.
Also you only see engine failures on engines that fail.
Certainly if there were any chance of engine failure on engines before 36k miles (or longer, since Honda loves selling extended warrantys) then they'd recommend shorter oil change intervals to save them money (and make more for dealers with more frequent oil changes).
Here's the thing with statistics- it's complicated. If you're a mechanic and you recommend 5k oil change intervals, that's what most of your customers may do. That's not a representative sample.
I would expect most people to follow the owner's manual's recommendations, especially when it's effortless to wait until the car says to change the oil.
Also you only see engine failures on engines that fail.
Certainly if there were any chance of engine failure on engines before 36k miles (or longer, since Honda loves selling extended warrantys) then they'd recommend shorter oil change intervals to save them money (and make more for dealers with more frequent oil changes).
Member
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 695
From: Vancouver
Given the setup of these (and other small displacement engines with DI/turbos etc.) no mechanic or engineer would suggest such a stupid idea.
Want more evidence, head over to Bob Is The Oil Guy (BITOG) where they discuss this ad nauseam.
Want more evidence, head over to Bob Is The Oil Guy (BITOG) where they discuss this ad nauseam.
Member
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 125
From: Silver Spring, MD
It doesn't always result in complete failure. Usually it results in premature timing chain or VTC actuator wear on top of starting or worsening oil burning. It can also cause the VTEC solenoids to act up and throw codes which almost always go away with fresh oil.
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