New/Upgraded Battery Install 51r
#21
01-04-2011, 12:12 PM
My dealer has a 100 month warranty OEM battery for $100. That's what I'll get.
#22
01-04-2011, 01:43 PM
Advantages of a bigger battery:
1. While it might not last longer, it'll work better in the cold- so if you reach the point when the battery's close to dead, you may get another winter out of it.
For example, (just making up numbers) if your battery is worn down so that it's got only 1/3 of its cold cranking capacity left, that might not be enough to start your car with the stock battery. But a battery twice as powerful- that's equivalent to 2/3...
2. Bigger battery would mean that it would take longer to drain if you left your lights on, or something else happened like a door light switch broke and an interior light never went off (someone posted about this with the hatch light). Or if you just leave your car parked for a couple of months.
3. I suppose if you listened to the radio for hours and hours and hours without the engine running, you're better off with a bigger battery.
4. You could jump-start a much bigger car with a bigger battery. So that woman (or man) at work that you've been ogling, when his/her SUV dies, you can be a hero.
Disadvantages:
1. Possibly more expensive (although from what I've been reading the stock battery's pretty expensive for what you get).
2. More weight= lower gas mileage.
3. Possible difficulties fitting it into the battery compartment.
1. While it might not last longer, it'll work better in the cold- so if you reach the point when the battery's close to dead, you may get another winter out of it.
For example, (just making up numbers) if your battery is worn down so that it's got only 1/3 of its cold cranking capacity left, that might not be enough to start your car with the stock battery. But a battery twice as powerful- that's equivalent to 2/3...
2. Bigger battery would mean that it would take longer to drain if you left your lights on, or something else happened like a door light switch broke and an interior light never went off (someone posted about this with the hatch light). Or if you just leave your car parked for a couple of months.
3. I suppose if you listened to the radio for hours and hours and hours without the engine running, you're better off with a bigger battery.
4. You could jump-start a much bigger car with a bigger battery. So that woman (or man) at work that you've been ogling, when his/her SUV dies, you can be a hero.
Disadvantages:
1. Possibly more expensive (although from what I've been reading the stock battery's pretty expensive for what you get).
2. More weight= lower gas mileage.
3. Possible difficulties fitting it into the battery compartment.
#23
01-04-2011, 01:53 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
There is actually a lot more to it than that. Try reading and searching you lazy bum.
#25
01-04-2011, 05:08 PM
thankful
I'm actually sincerely thankful you posted this DIY. I'm at 3 years 3 months and am due for a new battery. I just installed a subwoofer and want more cold cranking amps especially if I can get them cheaper than the OEM Honda replacement. I did some research on 51R batteries and there are subtle variations in size. I WILL do this when the time comes!
#27
01-08-2011, 01:44 AM
It doesn't, actually, i'm still wondering how a battery can make your stuff run "faster". I highly doubt his battery would output 16v. Most likely 13-14v max like any other smaller capacity battery. :P
Unless he could show some facts to back it up. I am not buying what he is saying. That's just me. A bigger battery will give you more reserve, i will give him that much.
Unless he could show some facts to back it up. I am not buying what he is saying. That's just me. A bigger battery will give you more reserve, i will give him that much.
#28
01-08-2011, 02:06 AM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
Where did I say those specifically would increase CCA? A larger battery will increase CCA which helps cold starts, and helps battle voltage fluctuations under load. Better grounds will create a larger electric potential. A larger gauge charge wire will deliver more current and charge the battery better. A larger alternator takes the load off the battery. A capacitor helps yet further in battling voltage fluctuation under changing demand.
Where do I say anything about my system putting out 16v? I said specifically the 1520CA (1115CCA) battery I have is putting out 12.9v under static load. However I have 13.9-14.5v running through my system at just above idle. This is confirmed in my datalogs taken from the voltage seen at the ECU, as well as the stock voltage gauge and the Equus Voltage gauge I have on my dash.
If you two go read my posts, as in actually read them, you will see why this is a good thing.
This is not theory, just because you don't understand it doesn't make it controversial.
Everything on your car is affected by your systems charging voltage. Better grounds, a larger charge cable and a higher output alternator help keep consistent, high voltage under load. That is a fact.
A higher reserve battery on its own, as I stated is a bandaid solution for those too inept to do the rest.
There are tables in every modern fuel injected ECU for things like injector latency v. charging voltage under various conditions (batt voltage is the generic label)
This way when it is very cold under cranking the ECU has the option to use a much higher latency like 1450-1900usec vs. 330-645 usec idling @ 13.x volts. This is just one example of why any proper upgrade to your weak stock electrical system is beneficial.
So I don't really care what you believe, but this is how it works. I could post data logs for you showing what happens, I could post fuel pump flow charts vs. voltage, but if you choose not to believe it, that doesn't mean I am not telling the truth.
This forum has a weird trend of embracing populism instead of fact. So feel whatever you like about the matter..
It doesn't, actually, i'm still wondering how a battery can make your stuff run "faster". I highly doubt his battery would output 16v. Most likely 13-14v max like any other smaller capacity battery. :P
Unless he could show some facts to back it up. I am not buying what he is saying. That's just me. A bigger battery will give you more reserve, i will give him that much.
Unless he could show some facts to back it up. I am not buying what he is saying. That's just me. A bigger battery will give you more reserve, i will give him that much.
If you two go read my posts, as in actually read them, you will see why this is a good thing.
This is not theory, just because you don't understand it doesn't make it controversial.
Everything on your car is affected by your systems charging voltage. Better grounds, a larger charge cable and a higher output alternator help keep consistent, high voltage under load. That is a fact.
A higher reserve battery on its own, as I stated is a bandaid solution for those too inept to do the rest.
There are tables in every modern fuel injected ECU for things like injector latency v. charging voltage under various conditions (batt voltage is the generic label)
This way when it is very cold under cranking the ECU has the option to use a much higher latency like 1450-1900usec vs. 330-645 usec idling @ 13.x volts. This is just one example of why any proper upgrade to your weak stock electrical system is beneficial.
So I don't really care what you believe, but this is how it works. I could post data logs for you showing what happens, I could post fuel pump flow charts vs. voltage, but if you choose not to believe it, that doesn't mean I am not telling the truth.
This forum has a weird trend of embracing populism instead of fact. So feel whatever you like about the matter..
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 01-08-2011 at 02:13 AM.
#29
01-08-2011, 12:50 PM
I personally am not "too inept to do the rest". When I was young I worked as an automatic transmission mechanic. I just see no need for the things you referred to on my Fit. An 07 Fit's alternator is rated at 87 amps, this is more than adequate. I always see adequate voltage (14 - 14.5 VDC on my Scanguage), this indicated a fully charged battery at all times. None of the things you referred to would improve this. Where as a 51R battery is a better/less expensive option to Honda's 151R (stock battery replacement). iF IT AIN'T BROKE WHY FIX IT?
Last edited by spreadhead; 01-08-2011 at 01:02 PM.
#30
01-08-2011, 01:09 PM
higher reserved as i stated before give you more juice so that you can listen to music more and stuff, but higher reserved doesn't mean it's going to dump out higher voltage, and your alternator will charge the battery when it gets low, so is not like the smaller 151R battery is going to drop all the way down to a 10v or anything, its voltage output should always hover between ~13-14v (whether is no load or under load) which means it gives the same voltage output as your 51R, which mean upgrading to a bigger reserve battery shouldn't increase voltage output, which mean it shouldn't make your sensors and stuff run "faster".
FYI, a forum is there for people to share their idea, thoughts and debates, so I don't think you should expect people to just accept anything that other people post in a forum.
I come from a forum that like to debate and like to talk about facts, I am not as knowledgeable as you are, so i am going by my common sense with the limited knowledge i got. Please share your knowledge and data to help me understand your theory, i am sure it will benefit other members in this forum as well.
Last edited by codenamezero; 01-08-2011 at 01:14 PM.
#31
01-08-2011, 05:24 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
I personally am not "too inept to do the rest". When I was young I worked as an automatic transmission mechanic. I just see no need for the things you referred to on my Fit. An 07 Fit's alternator is rated at 87 amps, this is more than adequate. I always see adequate voltage (14 - 14.5 VDC on my Scanguage), this indicated a fully charged battery at all times. None of the things you referred to would improve this. Where as a 51R battery is a better/less expensive option to Honda's 151R (stock battery replacement). iF IT AIN'T BROKE WHY FIX IT?
Because you don't need it nor benefit from it doesn't make what I said any less true. And you still didn't address the fact that a bigger battery better absorbs voltage fluctuations and lets the car run more consisten and efficiently, and in stronger systems this will be less than on others. YMMV. Since yours aint broke don't fix it.
yea could you post the data log? I saw your fuel pump flow chart, but that doesn't mean anything... because the battery is going to operate at around ~13-14v anyway, unless your 51R battery is dumping out straight high voltage (in the 15-16v range), you are NOT going see increase fuel flow as you mentioned earlier in your fuel pump flow chart diagram. plus don't think is a good idea to increase the voltage in order to gain fuel pressure, there are fuel pressure regulator out there that let you regulate and adjust your fuel pressure.
Except you realize that as we take up vacuum by pushing on the gas pedal, flow and feed pressure need to go up because we are EFI. we start at 52psi base pressure and at WOT need 65psi at the rail. When you are under load, voltage drops and as pressure increases flow drops (along with electrical draw for the pump(s), accessories, injectors, ignition system etc.) and voltage drop brings flow down as well as the system scrambles to keep up with engine demand and ECU command.
And without tuning around it when changing your fuel pressure, even unintentionally because of things like voltage drop.. you have changed your base injector and global fuel settings. This completely screws up every other calculation your ECU makes based on the fuel tables.
higher reserved as i stated before give you more juice so that you can listen to music more and stuff, but higher reserved doesn't mean it's going to dump out higher voltage, and your alternator will charge the battery when it gets low, so is not like the smaller 151R battery is going to drop all the way down to a 10v or anything, its voltage output should always hover between ~13-14v (whether is no load or under load) which means it gives the same voltage output as your 51R, which mean upgrading to a bigger reserve battery shouldn't increase voltage output, which mean it shouldn't make your sensors and stuff run "faster".
Except under cranking, people are seeing the smaller white case stock batteries falling below 10-11v routinely. Which is why people are having issues starting among other things. And under the same load and same duration, a bigger battery can maintain greater voltage. Everything else I suggested helps take the drain off the battery.
There is a difference between static load, and load under operating conditions you realize?
I know better grounds and larger cables helps the system, the larger cables have lower resistant. I am not arguing about that. YES, HIGHER ALTERNATOR OUTPUT HELP, but that means you need to CHANGE YOUR ALTERNATOR, NOT YOUR BATTERY isn't it?
Alternator, ground straps etc. like I said would be ideal. But in many cases you can get by on a larger battery. Many people opt to go this route and never know the wiser, except that they replace batteries every 1-3 years instead of every 3-6 or more.
FYI, a forum is there for people to share their idea, thoughts and debates, so I don't think you should expect people to just accept anything that other people post in a forum.
I agree but I get into these stupid pissing matches over basics so often here it gets frustrating. I don't expect you to know it, but I do expect you to try and learn it before you make conclusive statements like "I don't believe it" therefore it must be false.
I come from a forum that like to debate and like to talk about facts, I am not as knowledgeable as you are, so i am going by my common sense with the limited knowledge i got. Please share your knowledge and data to help me understand your theory, i am sure it will benefit other members in this forum as well.
Except you realize that as we take up vacuum by pushing on the gas pedal, flow and feed pressure need to go up because we are EFI. we start at 52psi base pressure and at WOT need 65psi at the rail. When you are under load, voltage drops and as pressure increases flow drops (along with electrical draw for the pump(s), accessories, injectors, ignition system etc.) and voltage drop brings flow down as well as the system scrambles to keep up with engine demand and ECU command.
And without tuning around it when changing your fuel pressure, even unintentionally because of things like voltage drop.. you have changed your base injector and global fuel settings. This completely screws up every other calculation your ECU makes based on the fuel tables.
higher reserved as i stated before give you more juice so that you can listen to music more and stuff, but higher reserved doesn't mean it's going to dump out higher voltage, and your alternator will charge the battery when it gets low, so is not like the smaller 151R battery is going to drop all the way down to a 10v or anything, its voltage output should always hover between ~13-14v (whether is no load or under load) which means it gives the same voltage output as your 51R, which mean upgrading to a bigger reserve battery shouldn't increase voltage output, which mean it shouldn't make your sensors and stuff run "faster".
Except under cranking, people are seeing the smaller white case stock batteries falling below 10-11v routinely. Which is why people are having issues starting among other things. And under the same load and same duration, a bigger battery can maintain greater voltage. Everything else I suggested helps take the drain off the battery.
There is a difference between static load, and load under operating conditions you realize?
I know better grounds and larger cables helps the system, the larger cables have lower resistant. I am not arguing about that. YES, HIGHER ALTERNATOR OUTPUT HELP, but that means you need to CHANGE YOUR ALTERNATOR, NOT YOUR BATTERY isn't it?
Alternator, ground straps etc. like I said would be ideal. But in many cases you can get by on a larger battery. Many people opt to go this route and never know the wiser, except that they replace batteries every 1-3 years instead of every 3-6 or more.
FYI, a forum is there for people to share their idea, thoughts and debates, so I don't think you should expect people to just accept anything that other people post in a forum.
I agree but I get into these stupid pissing matches over basics so often here it gets frustrating. I don't expect you to know it, but I do expect you to try and learn it before you make conclusive statements like "I don't believe it" therefore it must be false.
I come from a forum that like to debate and like to talk about facts, I am not as knowledgeable as you are, so i am going by my common sense with the limited knowledge i got. Please share your knowledge and data to help me understand your theory, i am sure it will benefit other members in this forum as well.
None of what I am describing to you is theory.
Just like when someone starts a pissing match over the basics of tuning EFI systems.. this is theory, like evolution is a theory.I often share knowledge, and usually I get to do it more politely, many times with other knowledgable contributors involved.
This is the only public forum I am on. The rest are far more strict about this stuff. The mods here are pretty cool actually, so fortunately it doesn't come to that over minor grievances. But pardon me if I don't feel like entertaining this sort of back and forth over simple stuff. Many topics, as you know, are far more complex and there is grey area. This is not one of them.
Anyways here are some pictures I took for you. Keep in mind that when I first had to relocate my battery, even with a 1520CA battery, 2ga. Charge wire, 150A alternator, bunch of 4ga. ground straps everywhere (block, manifold, battery etc.) I was only able to get that gauge and the logs to read 12.3v @ idle.
I have since switched to a 0ga wire, polished, sanded and added dielectric grease to every contact I could find. Then replaced and added 1 ga. ground straps everywhere possible. Now at idle with everything on I have 13.9-14.1v, here is the log from today:
Another thing to keep in mind is that this is with 2 large fuel pumps, 4 fans, the defroster, head lights, fog lights, meth computer, my laptop, meth pump, 4x 1450cc/min fuel injectors, radio, heater fan, etc running. 13.9v at idle under high electrical load, and about 14.5v under boost at high rpm when all the pumps are drawing a ton of power. Voltage is nice and rock steady keeping flow up at high pressure. My base fuel pressure is 45psi, and under 30psi, I have 70psi at the rail. Which if you look at those fuel pump flow charts I posted will show you how much fuel is needed to feed 1450cc/min injectors and burn more than 50lbs/min of air. I also have a shurflo methanol pump cranking 675cc/min through the injector at the throttle body with line pressure of 150psi. Which is also a lot of electrical load.
Without a supporting system I run the risk of running lean and detonating, or just suffering from part throttle hiccups with large injectors, hot and cold start enrichment problems, a rough idle, etc.
All from a poor electrical system. Everything I suggested above is how you resolve issues like these, or make sure you don't run into them in the first place.
Again, this is not theory.
Last edited by DiamondStarMonsters; 01-08-2011 at 05:47 PM.
#32
01-09-2011, 08:32 AM
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/1st-...stall-51r.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...t-battery.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...d-battery.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/1st-...k-battery.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-...n-2-weeks.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...y-upgrade.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/grea...-question.html
There are more, but you get the idea. By the way what does consisten mean? I could not find it in Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online
Last edited by spreadhead; 01-09-2011 at 09:40 AM.
#33
01-09-2011, 09:01 AM
DiamondStarMonsters
Member
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrty8street
thank you so much for that very informative and organized post.
There is actually a lot more to it than that. Try reading and searching you lazy bum.
Is this an example of how you "share knowledge" politely?
Last edited by spreadhead; 01-09-2011 at 09:14 AM.
#34
01-09-2011, 01:02 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
That's one of the reasons I've been recommending a 51R battery for years:
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/1st-...stall-51r.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...t-battery.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...d-battery.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/1st-...k-battery.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-...n-2-weeks.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...y-upgrade.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/grea...-question.html
There are more, but you get the idea. By the way what does consisten mean? I could not find it in Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/1st-...stall-51r.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...t-battery.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...d-battery.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/1st-...k-battery.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/2nd-...n-2-weeks.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/fit-...y-upgrade.html
https://www.fitfreak.net/forums/grea...-question.html
There are more, but you get the idea. By the way what does consisten mean? I could not find it in Dictionary and Thesaurus - Merriam-Webster Online
Consistent is the word you are looking for, and if I make one or two typos every few posts that still puts me far ahead of the curve here.
But when you're down to picking nits to look like less of an ass, I can see why you'd want to change the focus to spelling.
#35
01-09-2011, 01:06 PM
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,424
You're just too smart for the "technically inept on this forum"
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrty8street
thank you so much for that very informative and organized post.
There is actually a lot more to it than that. Try reading and searching you lazy bum.
Is this an example of how you "share knowledge" politely?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrty8street
thank you so much for that very informative and organized post.
There is actually a lot more to it than that. Try reading and searching you lazy bum.
Is this an example of how you "share knowledge" politely?
thrty8street could've gone back a few posts in this thread alone and find his question had been answered. But because no one can be bothered to search here, that is my fault? Not every single question has to be rehashed. That just makes it harder to search for what good info is on this forum.
And if a grown man gets butt hurt over being called a "lazy bum" .. someone needs thicker skin.
#36
01-30-2011, 01:23 PM
Where did you order it from? I have not been able to find the stock battery for less than $100, after shipping is factored in.
Last edited by Bluemoon; 01-30-2011 at 01:28 PM.
#37
01-30-2011, 03:03 PM
local
judging by the battery models mentioned I think most were going to get their 51Rs from autozone or advance auto. I was actually a little disappointed that at my 30K service they said my original battery was stellar. I'm DOING this one when the time comes!
#38
01-30-2011, 09:16 PM
FYI, i am still on the OEM (2007) battery, currently at 80k/km. Granted, is hard to start when is -20 outside, probably on its way out.
#39
01-31-2011, 09:08 PM
I had noticed a sluggish response from the starter recently, so I was already wondering if the battery was on its way out. I called my local dealer (Honda Carland North; Cartersville, GA), and they quoted me $79.99 (+ 7% tax= $85.59) for a new battery, if I gave them the old one (if they do not get the old battery, there is an additional $12 charge. They can appaently re-use parts of the battery.) This was cheaper than any of the online prices I found, once shipping/handling is factored into the equation. I was pleasantly surprised to see a dealer offer such a competitive price. They will install it for another $20. I need to get the window switch and headlight recalls taken care of anyway, so I went ahead and made an appointment to have the work done.