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Clutch Pedal Engagement Height Very High

  #1  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:01 PM
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Clutch Pedal Engagement Height Very High

My new-to-me 2009 Fit with 35k miles seems to engage clutch at the end of the upwards travel of the clutch pedal. To be clear, that means when the pedal is furthest from the floor. Is this common?

My 2009 Accord, purchased new, did not engage at the very end of pedal's upward travel but I heard that it's common for Hondas to do so.

The clutch pedal seems to have about 6 to 7 inches of travel. Just seems odd that engagement would occur in last inch or so of travel. Pedal adjustment seems fine (amount of free play, height of released pedal, starter interlock switch, etc.,) and there is no slippage at all even when driving "enthusiastically". Still, that very high engagement point makes me think that perhaps my clutch's friction material is very worn and that perhaps a new clutch will be needed soon.

So, what pedal height is normal for start of clutch engagement for a manual 2nd gen Fit?

BTW, did a search and came up dry, but I've got to believe that this topic has been covered before.
 

Last edited by FTBT; 05-16-2019 at 08:02 PM. Reason: typo
  #2  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:13 AM
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There's a nut near the firewall that's supposed to adjust this. I'm headed to work at the moment but I'll find the shop manual reference and post it late tonight or tomorrow.
 
  #3  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Red 05 View Post
There's a nut near the firewall that's supposed to adjust this. I'm headed to work at the moment but I'll find the shop manual reference and post it late tonight or tomorrow.

Dude, thanks a lot. Been wondering about this for awhile.
 
  #4  
Old 05-17-2019, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Red 05 View Post
There's a nut near the firewall that's supposed to adjust this. I'm headed to work at the moment but I'll find the shop manual reference and post it late tonight or tomorrow.

Hi. I've checked pedal adjustment -- it's OK. The clutch is hydraulically activated as you know (with clutch master cylinder and a "slave" cylinder). I've made sure that the amount of free play is correct (I own the service manual). The free play in the pedal is the travel distance of the pedal from fully released to the point when the clutch master cylinder is fully released and on the cusp of being driven forward by hydraulic line pressure. Adequate free play ensures that the clutch is fully engaged (and not partially disengaged because the master cylinder piston is not fully released) when the pedal is released, as you know.

So what is happening here is that as I depress the clutch pedal first the free play is taken up, then the clutch master cylinder is actuated disengaging the clutch. My complaint is that the clutch is disengaging quickly, with clutch pedal still high at the beginning of its travel, with apparent little travel of master cylinder. I think that this could imply that the clutch is worn or it could also be how Honda has designed clutch system at least to some extent.
 

Last edited by FTBT; 05-17-2019 at 04:17 PM. Reason: additional clarifying information
  #5  
Old 05-17-2019, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by FTBT View Post
My complaint is that the clutch is disengaging quickly, with clutch pedal still high at the beginning of its travel, with apparent little travel of master cylinder. I think that this could imply that the clutch is worn or it could also be how Honda has designed clutch system at least to some extent.
I can't verify the exact feel based off memory as I actually learned manual with this car. It was terrible! After much desperation and headaches attempting to come up with new ways to ask the question "what the hell is this junk?" I fumbled upon this.

Clutch Delay Valve Delete

I can tell you that my car shifts like a regular ol' car, with the pedal tightened down to the lowest position. I still get solid engagement at 70k miles, if anything, there isnt enough slip in the stock clutch (actually did check P/Ns to verify that components weren't used for multiple platforms). She still shudders when the disc is cold if I dont hike up rpms.. something that will be addressed eventually.
Mind you, I learned to manual on this car, then taught two other nice people. Between this modification and the addition of a short throw shifter you'll find the interaction quite pleasant.
 
  #6  
Old 05-17-2019, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Pyts View Post
I can't verify the exact feel based off memory as I actually learned manual with this car. It was terrible! After much desperation and headaches attempting to come up with new ways to ask the question "what the hell is this junk?" I fumbled upon this.

Clutch Delay Valve Delete

I can tell you that my car shifts like a regular ol' car, with the pedal tightened down to the lowest position. I still get solid engagement at 70k miles, if anything, there isnt enough slip in the stock clutch (actually did check P/Ns to verify that components weren't used for multiple platforms). She still shudders when the disc is cold if I dont hike up rpms.. something that will be addressed eventually.
Mind you, I learned to manual on this car, then taught two other nice people. Between this modification and the addition of a short throw shifter you'll find the interaction quite pleasant.

I'll check into this valving issue but still it seems unlikely that this can be the cause.

I previously owned a manual Accord for four years, same model year as the Fit -- the clutch did not disengage with pedal barely depressed. Two of my other cars, a Miata and a BMW, are also manuals and they certainly do not have a clutching action like the Fit. Now in theory it could be that my Fit's clutch is very worn even though it only has 35k miles on it as previous owner could have abused the clutch. However, there are no other indications of clutch abuse so that hypothesis seems unlikely to be true. I'll have to go test drive other used 2nd gen Fits to see how their clutch action works.

If my clutch is worn, I'd like to make sure I know this now so that I can plan on replacing it preemptively before I'm left stranded somewhere far from home (this car is going to be my ski car and I regularly drive cross country to ski out west).

I guess that I could just drop the tranny and take a look but that is a lot of work (been there done that).
 

Last edited by FTBT; 05-17-2019 at 04:28 PM. Reason: to make more elegant
  #7  
Old 05-17-2019, 07:35 PM
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Try going all the way down on the clutch adjustment before dropping the tranny. Pretty please?
 
  #8  
Old 05-17-2019, 09:39 PM
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My clutch had a high engagment. All my manual cars have had a high engagement except for my 88 Accord. For my Civic I think the service manual said it was normal or within spec if it engaged after the first inch or so of travel. I am sure the Fit serivce manual has a similiar spec.

01 SER Spec-V
01 Civic
09 Fit
13 GTI
Dad's 2000 Prelude
Brother's Bug Eye WRX
86 F-150

Out of all these cars the Fit's clutch is unique and requires getting used to it. It is one of the more odd clutches out there.
 

Last edited by GolNat; 05-17-2019 at 09:44 PM.
  #9  
Old 05-18-2019, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Pyts View Post
Try going all the way down on the clutch adjustment before dropping the tranny. Pretty please?
Ha! Just joking about dropping the tranny. Would only do that if I really thought clutch was worn but there are no other symptoms suggestive of prior owner abusing clutch.

What you are suggesting is that I increase the free play of the clutch pedal (increase the travel distance of pedal before master cylinder is activated by pedal) beyond Honda specs. I will look into doing this (going beyond Honda specifications) because with all that pedal travel (over 6 inches) there is probably no way adding some reasonable amount of more free play will result in a dragging clutch (clutch that is not fully disengaged) when pedal is depressed a reasonable amount.

As to delay valving, we should all be clear about that. Clutch delay valving purpose is to prevent sudden engagement-related driveline trauma. It works only when pedal is let off, when engaging clutch and has no effect when clutch pedal is depressed, when disengaging clutch. Without the delay mechanism, if someone lets off on the clutch suddenly when shifting they can introduce driveline shock. I suppose that this is especially the case when downshifting if one does not rev match properly or lets out clutch without allowing slippage if revs don't match. I have no desire to delete or defeat whatever delay Honda has built it. Even with that delay I can easily chirp a 1-2 upshift if I want to.

My issue is solely about the fact that my clutch pedal has over 6 inches of travel of which only 1 1/2 inch is useable (at full pedal height) and I suppose the only way to try to address that if the clutch is not worn would be to introduce more free play in the pedal.

Terminology used in this post:

To engage the clutch means to connect the engine and the transmission together, to disengage means to disconnect that mechanical linkage between engine and tranny. We engage the clutch by pushing down on the pedal and we disengage by releasing the pedal (hopefully with finesse but if not the clutch delay valving will provide some baseline amount of finesse).
 

Last edited by FTBT; 05-18-2019 at 01:00 AM.
  #10  
Old 05-18-2019, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ChuckDustin View Post
Dude, thanks a lot. Been wondering about this for awhile.
Check you PM's.
 
  #11  
Old 05-18-2019, 02:14 AM
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Excellent post, FTBT!

Apologies for missing the mark there. Hats off to you if you can handle the delay valve! For myself, being an amatuer ( indefinitely ) the design was, forgive the technical terminology, not dope.

As for the range of the pedal, should you wind up making it as short as possible I'd love to hear your feedback. If theres been a fault overlooked there, correcting it would certainly serve to prevent further spread of bad advice from this guy.

Glad to hear the bit about the tranny was a joke. Crazier things have been done! Still, despite limited experience it strikes as strange to think a clutch could be beaten within an inch of its life so quickly and not glaze enough to slip. If its still quiet and the throw out bearing/pressure plate are doing their job, theres not much left to ponder. But at this point its obvious you're already well aware.

Keep us updated!

GolNat: Is it really that commonplace? Thats a demanding range of motion!
 

Last edited by Pyts; 05-18-2019 at 03:42 AM.
  #12  
Old 05-18-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by GolNat View Post
My clutch had a high engagment. All my manual cars have had a high engagement except for my 88 Accord. For my Civic I think the service manual said it was normal or within spec if it engaged after the first inch or so of travel. I am sure the Fit serivce manual has a similiar spec.

01 SER Spec-V
01 Civic
09 Fit
13 GTI
Dad's 2000 Prelude
Brother's Bug Eye WRX
86 F-150
Your GTI had a high engagement? I just totaled my 2017 GTI (truck in front of me dumped its asphalt load onto the highway) and it was a pleasure to use clutch. In fact, not one of my manual tranny cars is/was nearly as high as the Fit seems to me. Perhaps it's the combination of long travel, although obviously not necessary to put clutch pedal to floor inasmuch as it disengages clutch after about 1 1/2 inch of travel (1/2 inch of which is free play), in addition to high pedal. Even my 2009 Accord was much better. Really miss that GTI, btw.

Originally Posted by GolNat View Post

Out of all these cars the Fit's clutch is unique and requires getting used to it. It is one of the more odd clutches out there.
I'll second that.
 
  #13  
Old 05-18-2019, 08:03 PM
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I bought my Ď10 with 25k on it and the clutch felt astronomically high. Of course my daily before that was a 98 M3 with an M5 clutch and cdv delete.

it seems a lot lower now, even after a new clutch, slave and master but now that i think about it, probably need a fluid flush 😬
 

Last edited by punx45; 05-18-2019 at 08:05 PM.
  #14  
Old 05-18-2019, 09:58 PM
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I guess I'm getting used to it over time (only on my third tank of gas) but I wonder whether getting used to it will mean that I'll have to re-acclimate myself to driving normal MT cars.

Separately, am playing around with gas pedal left side extension in order to "heel/toe" on the street (which means under gentle to moderate braking). I'm also finding the stock throttle control delay annoying. I guess I'll do a separate post on this.

This little Fit is fun to drive notwithstanding these little quirks (numb on center steering feel, high clutch pedal action, electronic throttle lags)
 
  #15  
Old 05-19-2019, 12:10 AM
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You can look into an electronic throttle controller in regards to pedal response. Be wary though if you aren't familiar, my experience was with one from Apexi, and I didnt like the arc of the output signal voltage in any setting. On the eco modes it was all lag, only on the "sportiest" mode no lag but sneeze and its 110%, then drops before going back up.

Not sure whether manufacturers will surrender that info or not, havent looked since.
 
  #16  
Old 05-19-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Pyts View Post
You can look into an electronic throttle controller in regards to pedal response. Be wary though if you aren't familiar, my experience was with one from Apexi, and I didnt like the arc of the output signal voltage in any setting. On the eco modes it was all lag, only on the "sportiest" mode no lag but sneeze and its 110%, then drops before going back up.

Not sure whether manufacturers will surrender that info or not, havent looked since.
Yeah the throttle lag drives me crazy. Iíve actually watched my revs continue climbing to 7k after letting off and punching the clutch at like 6.8-9
 
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