There is a difference between brands and even top tier. Use different stations and find out what works best usually the best mpg is the one you want to keep using. At my work we get Exxon fuels and have to add additives to prevent problems. I doubt 7-11 would want to pay for the additives to make it a real Exxon gasoline. They also have different fuels for different stations and can grab from the top or bottom of the tank wells. When they feed the fuels at the farm the one after diesel was pumped is regular and that one is unbranded fuel then the pump mid grade(certain brands) and then premium and then regular again, that is what top tier stations use. Yes all fuels are hydrocarbons but there is a difference.

We are not even talking about the licensing cost to use a name brand. You get what you pay for and that said using a generic gas does not mean its bad but you will pay more in the long run with maintenance and extra gas for bad mpg.

Detergents are only one additive but there is also friction modifiers and the quality of the additives.

If you really want to see the difference get a secondary gauge and monitor the ecu and out side conditions like barometric pressure and throttle positions. Using a higher octane or better quality fuel you will see more timing and higher mpg at cruise.

 

I will use Northern California as my example because that is where I'm located but the location can be anywhere form the Golf Coast to the North West or Southern California, etc.

Refinery location and distribution Facts:
There are only so many refineries in a given location. Usually only a few. These location can cover a very large area. For example in NorCal there is only two that covers all of NorCal. A Shell and a Chevon located in the East Bay.
There are easily a dozen different "brands" (businesses) in the same location. Location being NorCal.
Each location will have only a few dominant companies in that market.
Gas is a commodity, traded and exchanged like any other commodity. This means they all buy/sell/trade with each other, yes even competitors will buy each other's gas.
For the most part only the (real) oil companies have refineries. Because they are the only ones that can afford it and have the skill/knowledge/size to make it feasible. This is part of their vertical integration business model. Any specific location can only have the capacity to have so many refineries other wise there will be an over supply. Refineries have to be certain size for economies of scale but can't be too large.
So 7-11 or any non oil companies will buy gas from one/any/all of these local refineries. If a refinery, let say Shell, has a fire and shuts down for a week or a month they will buy from Chevron for that duration. Shell is not gonna have their gas station supply by the Shell refinery half way across the country because their local one is out of operation, it doesn't not make economic sense...back to gas being a commodity. Similar to how electricity, also a commodity, is distributed it does not make economic sense for the South West to supply the East Coast with electricity.

Additive facts:
Currently marketed additives have only been used since the mid 90's. Prior to that there really was no marketing of such.
Ethanol as an additive is the main cause of gas problems in the last 20years. One reason is that it absorbs water. Prior to it there really was no gas problem. Gas was oily back then, for those old enough to remember, and you can keep it for a year with no problems. Now it is dry as a bone in the desert, feel it next time it gets on your hands. Today after a month of non use your gas will degrade quite a bit because of the ethanol. The main reason we need these cleaning additives today is because of the ethanol in gas and all the problems that it causes. So what do you do about it? Best to use gas with no ethanol if available. If that is not an option then use the minimal % of ethanal. Currently most places will have about 10% ethanol and some places 15% and it is only getting worse, more getting added every year.

So what am I try to say with all this? Don't worry about where you get your gas it's all the same. Just keep ethanol to a minimum and use some fuel system cleaner, I prefer sea foam, every 10k miles and you'll be fine. I go with the lowest cost gas available.

There are other reasons why you'll have gas problems. One example is getting gas when it is raining heavy and you didn't quite get under the gas station canopy so some very small amount of water got in your tank or for some reason the area around your fill is dirty or the nozzle is dirty. Other things are just urban myths and mis information, like gas at the bottom of the station is dirtier then gas at the top or temperature of when you get gas etc. etc.

 

DaBinChe, you're right but you're fighting a lot of long-standing Internet Whizzdom!

If bottom feeder stations like Arco are selling gas under the "top tier" label then there must not be much expense in producing it and it is unlikely that any given station is selling non-Top-Tier-spec gas.

Now, what about Pflash? Fina marketed it in the '60s and said that it would improve driving by "turning red lights green," "smoothing out rough roads," "improving the food at roadside restaurants" and "making you feel less sorry you ever got a driver's license."

I gotta get me some of that!

 

WOW. That is just incredibly rude. You're not interested in the subject -- that's fine. Why do you need to be rude about it? *I* had no idea there was anything requiring me to use a special gasoline when I get my new car, so this has been very informative for me. I won't use Exxon products, so now I know I may need to be looking around and finding some vendor of "top tier" gas.

 

Below is a list of gas companies in the US that offer "Top Tier Gas". As you can see its basically any gas station you'll ever see without going out of your way to find one not on the list. Top tier gas is marketing. It just means there are additives just like when you buy oil for your car there is an additive pack. there is nothing SPECIAL about any of these gasolines except the detergent additive pack that each uses which is likely very very very similar to each other. In regards to be me being rude, if you read his original post its not because he's interested in what makes a top tier gas a top tier gas its that he's paranoid that the 7-11 by his house is lying to him and falsely advertising the brand of gas that they distribute all in the name of some cash back program. That being said yes good sir, it is recommended that you use gasoline that has some sort of detergent additive pack and you can find said quality gasoline at literally every gas station in your town. Sorry if i have offended anyone, that wasn't my intent. The intention is keeping reposts and useless threads from taking up space that way when someone actually wants to learn about something there aren't 20 irrelevant threads they have to sort through in order to get the answer to a question.
USA
76 Stations
Aloha Petroleum
ARCO
Beacon
BP
Chevron
Conoco
Costco Wholesale
CountryMark
Diamond Shamrock
Entec Stations
Express Convenience Centers
Exxon
Hawaii Fueling Network (HFN)
Holiday Stationstores
Kwik Trip / Kwik Star
MFA Oil Co.
Mobil
Ohana Fuels
Phillips 66
QuikTrip
Road Ranger
Shamrock
Shell
Sinclair
Suncor Energy Inc
SuperAmerica
Texaco
Tri-Par Oil Co.
Valero

 

You have been taken in by the marketing hype. The "top tier" license / certification requires that you (the retailer) "self certify" that you meet their requirements which are fairly nebulous. The only firm requirement is your fuel for sale at retail must contain a minimum of 8% ethanol. You notice that the supplied list is one of retailers and not refiners because "top tier" has nothing to do with refining.

The prime detergent additive to "top tier" is ethanol. The base fuel is delivered to the terminal usually by pipeline without ethanol. Mixing is done at the terminal because ethanol can not be delivered by pipeline. Ethanol is delivered either by rail car or truck to the terminal. This is because ethanol, if shipped by pipeline, will loosen up all kinds of crap along the way and also tends to dissolve welded joints and valves. If also has an affinity for water and will combine with any moisture encountered along the way.

There are over 100 pre-defined products that a pipeline will or can move. Ethanol or ethanol blends are not one of them.

Since almost terminals now have Ethanol mixing facilities, it is a simple procedure to make sure that ethanol is added to specific loads going to "top tier" retailers. Also in most EPA non-attainment areas and the State of Kalifornia 10% ethanol is already required for all road fuel sold at retail so they have to do nothing in those cases.

Please notice from the provided list that the list is retailers. Where do you think retail companies like Road Ranger, Kwik-Trip, Costco, etc. along with the brands you recognize as refiners get the the fuel that the sell? In most areas there are only two or three terminals in a given geography and they provide the fuel to all retail brands.

So you can buy on to the hype if you wish. When I see a "top tier" brand, and I'm not in a non-attainment" area, I bypass it hoping to find a location that sells 100% real fuel. So the more you buy "top tier" fuel, the better my chances are of finding 100% real gasoline in that same geography.

Years ago most major and some minor brands ran their own refining operations. In my area there were 7 refineries in a 15 mile radius. Today 6 of them no longer exist Those "tea kettle" refining operations were no longer viable. The 7th one has grown to a super large operation. In fact they just completed a 3.5 billion dollar expansion. It now supplies 80% of the retailers for a few hundred miles around. There is still a small refinery operating about 35 miles away and is does supply about 20% of the market.

So as a retailer you have no choice. If you want to sell fuel you will get it for one of the two of these refiners. I guess you could pay to truck it in from elsewhere if the refinery / terminal you purchased it from has fuel that meets the EPA spec's for your geography.

 

Being from Houston I am aware that companies do research the detergents added to products. I worked at a dealership just down the road from Shell headquarters. They'd run formulations in cars and bring them to us to have the engine torn down for inspection. The producers really do research this stuff and they do add formulations to the fuel, which does typically come from a few same sources.

 

hello buzzkill. it isn't up to you to judge what other people post. If you don't like it then move on.

 

ok people get back on topic and hold the harsh comments. it is up to us moderators to judge what people post. relax the comments before we start deleting and censoring stuff.

 

If all of this is just marketing then why would Honda waste their time talking about it in my owner's manual?? I don't understand what they have to gain if it's BS.

 

It depends, probably mainly on your location. If there's a brand on the pump, that should be the brand of gas they're selling. Although 7-11 did still have Citgo branded pumps for at least a while after dumping Citgo.They're buying gas now from several companies.

To see if the brand is top tier or not, go see toptiergas.com. If the company is listed, they sell top tier gas. If they aren't listed, they still might be, but there's no way to be certain as far as I know short of getting info from the gas company itself. Despite what one person claims about all gas being the same, they aren't. But, it is true that a lot of the hype about special additived by certain brands is just that, hype.

By the way, top tier just means that the gas has a certain level of detergents, one which is higher than the EPA required minimum, and has no metallic additives. It doesn't mean anything as far as performance or efficiency is concerned. It's about keeping the engine clean, and most auto manufacturers require it to be used. If it isn't and there's any engine damage they think was caused by using non-top tier gas, they won't do repairs under their warranty.

 

Top Tier means a certain level of detergents, one that's above what the EPA requires, and that it doesn't have any metallic additives. That's all it means. Major auto makers are requiring it because it keeps the engine cleaner, and if there's an engine problem that looks like it was caused by using anything but top tier gas, the warranty won't cover it. So it isn't a markerting ploy, although a lot of gas company claims are, in fact, hype.

 

Where do you see in your warranty that "Top Tier" gas is REQUIRED in your car?

To keep their warranty alive, what do people do for gasoline in areas where "Top Tier" (10% craponol) is not available?

I have not checked lately but originally Alaska (and Hawaii) were exempt from the ethanol mandate. Hawaii now has E10 fuel, but they passed a state law removing the requirement to sell it. Many locations in Canada, Mexico, Guam, and US Virgin Islands also do not have 10% craponol (Top Tier) fuel. Are their warranties void or do the car manufacturers just not sell in those locations?

 

First, Top Tier has nothing to do with Ethanol, which is just a form of alcohol that is mixed in with some gasoline. And while I've never seen it, some fuels apparently have Methanol in them, which is still alcohol, but it's wood alcohol. If you ever see someone selling gas with Methanol, do not buy it. Not all car makers require Top Tier gas, but most, I think even all, of the majors do now, and Honda is one that does.

Look in the manual under required maintenance and/or fuel categories.

The difference between Top Tier brands and non-Top Tier brands is just the detergent additives that are put into every tanker full of gas (Often, the gas itself is exactly the same and the only difference between one brand and another is the additives used). The deal with "Top Tier" gas is nothing more than a required amount and type of detergents and NO metallic additives. There's an EPA required detergents minimum for gasoline, but it is less than the requirement for Top Tier. Other than that, Top Tier doesn't really mean anything. It doesn't have anything directly to do with Octane, Power, Mileage, or anything else. However, using a non-Top Tier gas will cause more deposits buildup in the engine, and that buildup will eventuallf negatively affect all aspects of performance.

By the way, higher Octane is NOT better. It's just different, having to do with compression rstios and just when the gas ignites in the cylinder. Higher Octane gas ignites at a higher temp than lower Octane gas. If your car manual says, for instance, use 88 Octane and you're using 92, you're just throwing money away. And if your engine wants the gas to ignite at a certain point, that higher Octane gas could ignite later, so it might even be a bad thing. But if you use lower Octane than the manufacturer requires, the gas certainly will ignite too soon, a condition called "preignition", and you'll get a knocking sound. And it's bad for the engine. Saving a few cents a gallon by using lower Octane gas is a REALLY bad idea, as far as the engine is concerned. And in the end you might well spend more on repairs than you saved on gas.

So what's the point of Top Tier gas? Metallic additives can damage emissions control systems, so they'rs not allowed. Detergents retard or even prevent deposits, essentially carbon, from building up in injectors and on intake valves. The better the detergent additives work, the cleaner the inside of the engine stays, and the less likely there will be damage from built up deposits.

What if there aren't any top Tier gasolines being sold where you live? FIrst, an amazing number of brands are certified as Top Tier, including ones you've probably never heard of. Go to Licensed Brands | Top Tier Gas to see a list.

Second, it's probably not a big problem. If you have engine trouble and go in for warranty repairs, and it's a problem that might be caused by too much deposits buildup, they'll check the engine. If they find, for example, too much carbon buildup on the valves for the mileage the car has, they'll say you haven't been using the required gas, and not fix it under warranty. But it IS buildup that's the problem, something that doesn't happen overnight. A tankful of non-Top Tier once in a great while shouldn't hurt your engine. But using it regularly will.

I doubt that there's a place anywhere in the US that doesn't have someone seling Top Tier gas within 10 or 15 miles at the most. Check that list, find out what the nearest places are, and if none is real close, and some time you run low on gas and have to buy non-Top Tier, buy just emough to get to where you can fill up with a Top Tier brand. If you do that, I really doubt you'll have a problem.