That would definately be nice. BTW Im not bashing anyone just saying the products aren't as easy to get ahold of.

 

sound kind of like the 240 crowd in the late 90's where only a select few know how to do the swaps to the sr20det.

I would assume a stand alone like a AEM EMS would be useable to perform the same as the 2 ecu's....but time will tell.

 

It all depends on how much you want to spend and how you want your car to perform. I was first looking into a K-swap because of the potential and more power. It is overall faster and performs more reliably if built right. In the case of FI though, you have a better weight distribution for track purposes, the power delivery is better for a fwd car with the ability to handle torque steer better, and the cost is cheaper to have the same track times or better. I still can't decide and I probably won't till all the numbers are in front of me.

 

but an ep3 already comes with a k series in it to begin with. a swap just adds about 45 ponies.

 

The problem with the EP3 is the 2744 lb curb weight. From my understanding the K20 powertrain is supposed to be something like 110 lbs. heavier than the stock L15 powertrain, so add that to the 2471 lb. curb weight of a stock Fit Sport and you're still looking at something under 2600 lbs. Not light, but still a lot lighter than the EP3. And besides, no offense, but the K20A3 in the EP3 is garbage.

 

2744lb curb weight isn't that much nowadays. not when you have gti's and mazdaspeeds tipping the scales at over 3000lbs. (but with the required added grunt.)


the k20a3 is a typical honda engine: makes good hp for its size, fairly frugal, smooth and it sounds great. hardly garbage. the best platform for performance tuning? no not really, but hardly 'garbage'. (that hatch should have read 'EX' on the back not 'SI'. as an ex it would have been a great little car and not as hounded on as it is. granted there are still guys out there making sick numbers with the stock engine.)

the reason i brought up the ep3's k20 wasn't because i was specifically referring to the stock k20 it comes with...you could very easily nab a k20a2 and make things a LOT more fun. (personally to me, the plug and play of of this engine in the ep3 is more do-able than stuffing it into an old eg or ef even if its not going to be number 1 at the end of the race. I happen to love the way the ep looked too.)


but if a 5lb kit gives me the same results as a k20 powered fit, or something comparable, i'll be happy.

 

True, 2744 isn't that much by comparison nowadays, but it's still far too heavy to allow it to be anything special in an NA platform. Pretty difficult to hit that "magical" 10 lbs. of weight or less per hp ratio without a big investment. I refer to the K20A3 as garbage because to me it's crap compared to it's better performing relatives. See K20A, K20Z, K20A2, and K24A2. I'm an All-Motor guy at heart, so to me the K20A3 is like the B18B.....yes you can still make tons of power with it, but it's not going to happen without boost and/or a performance rebuild to improve compression, air flow, etc. Whereas, with those others you can be making 230+ whp with cams, bolt-ons, and tuning without really even impacting reliability.

 

It's really hard to compare these two things when you're the only one who actually has a functional street K20 Fit. You keep saying that Hasport/Hondata are helpful, but really they haven't showed it. Hocker is right... we've had 99% of the stuff for the K20 swap into the fit sitting dead for months, the swap is a trivial thing for us but the wiring is holding it up.

Other drawbacks you didn't mention about the K20 swap...

1. Since it requires a hybrid harness, you either need to buy brand new ones from Honda or find a core (difficult finding a used Fit core given the low age of the cars) if you want to keep downtime to a minimum. Otherwise you have to send the wiring in and wait, with your car dead, until it comes back.

2. Like the harness, you have to wait for your Fit ECU to be reflashed, since helpful Hondata is the only one who can do it.

3. The HASport mount kit is nice, just like all their other mounts (I run them in my CRX as well), but you still use part of the Fit OEM mounts, which are definitely not designed for the power and torque the K20 puts out. When installing some stuff on Hocker's Fit, I noticed the motor moving while it wasn't even running, just moving the car up and down on the lift. So... you have to buy 2 sets of mounts: the HASport K20 mounts and another brand to replace the weak stock Fit mounts (I believe the set we have still in the box is Innovative but I'm not 100%).


now about FI...

Putting your own kit together for $1500 means either you aren't using good parts, you get amazing deals, or you're skimping on a lot of stuff. I've done tons of turbo installs and finding a good reliable one done with good parts for less than even 2 grand is tough (not including labour). You can spend nearly $1200 on a turbo alone! There are so many little things that add up, unless you've actually done it before you may not know everything... and personally I wouldn't cheap out on something that.

Once this becomes more popular and people are getting better with the L series engines, I expect to see boosted L15s with stock internals putting down in the low 200whp range (220-250) with good setups. They aren't that different from the old D series SOHCs, if anything the L is a little better, and should be able to perform similarly.

 

Very good points, but wouldn't a boosted version of the L15 force the same upgrade in the stock Fit mounts as the K20 would, assuming that the hp and tq numbers of the 10 lb kit are in the 200 whp range?

 

Yup, didn't even think of that! Just another "little" cost for the turbo.

 

Another thing to think of is the axles,clutch and mounts. I honestly don't care what any company claims. I know JDMChris has had the SC on his setup and hasn't had issues but I have also been around honda setups for over 10 years and when your increasing HP that much those parts will wear out quicker than you think. I know of plenty of people with D-series (which is a very very close engine to compare) that do these swaps (FI) and they can get away with not replacing axles,mounts,clutches but they also know how to baby their car to where those parts aren't being worn on. The avg driver and a majority of people do not know how to drive their cars. I see plenty of 16yr olds (no offense) that beat on their cars and need to have those parts because lets face it the stock parts are designed for the stock engine. They aren't designed for the increase so sooner than not those parts can and will fail.

Just better to be safe anyways, safety is a huge important part of building cars.

 

This is a fun comparison to think about. I don't think I'll ever do either mod to the Fit do to the costs and purpose of the car, which to me is daily driver but I have thought about it a lot.

The FI route on the stock motor is obviously easier to pull off than the engine swap. It's cheaper and less labor, I don't think there's much of an argument there.

From a performance and reliability perspective I think that the k swap is better in all areas. The larger k motor will provide a better power band for the street and it will be more reliable than a stock L15 on boost.

For me, one of the weak points of the Fit is the short gearing. I feel that 5th gear is way too short and I'd like to be running at less than 4k rps at 80mph because I spend most of my time at 80mph. The engine swap with the 6 speed transmission would solve this problem and I'd be interested to see a MPG comparison between a boosted L15 and the k swapped car at various speeds. I wouldn't be surprised if the k20 car was more economical on the highway because of the optimal gearing. Hell, it might be more economical at lower speeds as well without the parasitic loss of a belt driven SC.

And there's always the modding potential of the k motor over the L15. If I were hell bent on modifying my Fit and had the talent to do so I'd go the k swap route. But I think for simplicity most will go with the FI option.

 

As long as they're not launching the car from a stop then those components should still last a long time, but you definitely raise a good point. Doubling the power output will definitely increase the wear and tear on those items.

 

Just ran the K20Z through the gear ratio calculator, and with the stock Fit Sport tire diameter it would be spinning 3600 rpm at 80 mph. Not far off from the the 3750-3800 of the L15 in the Fit Sport at that same speed.

 

Interesting. I guess the next question then would be: if you're spinning 4k rpms on a turbo L15 are you getting into boost and therefore killing your MPG while cruising on the highway?

 

You're only in boost under load, since engine vacuum and load are directly related. This means you're in the cruise (high vacuum, mid-high RPM) portion of the map, and your MPG should be similar to stock.

 

Not necessarily. Just because the turbo is capable of reaching full boost by 4k rpm doesn't mean that the turbo will be running at full boost every time that the engine is spinning at that rpm. Hell you could have the car spinning at 6500 rpm without any boost pressure. So....if you can keep throttle input to an absolute minimum, you could most likely keep the engine in vacuum most of the time while cruising on the highway.

 

Thanks for the information guys, good discussion.

I'd still like to see some dyno numbers/ MPG numbers of the various setups once they become more prolific.

 

You're definitely not the only one looking forward to the performance numbers.

 

the way turbo works is that the change in throttle effects the turbo system like they stated above. The only difference is that depending on how good the tune on the piggyback(all FI are piggyback unless they make a standalone even when they call them not piggy back) HKS, JRSC, Greddy, T1R etc. If the tuner is good they will be able to tune the fuel to meet your driving habits, and can potentially increase MPG by leaning out regular driving where the stock ECU might have been rich. Plus for the first few months after FI you won't be seeing an improvement while romping on the gas all the time to feel the increased HP you just got.