Very disappointed in 2015 mpg ratings.
Member
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 39
From: Albuquerque, NM
Despite what you may think, racing to a red light does not get you anywhere faster. The main reason I beat EPA handily is by using brakes less than most drivers through anticipation of traffic, turns, and lights. My goal when driving is to slow down by coasting. That is not possible all the time of course, but with effort and a certain ability to anticipate conditions and smart route choice, it is possible a lot of the time; and rarely do I have to stop from full speed.
If you like a little physics mixed into your driving, consider the difference between braking from either 25 or 40 mph down to zero using friction brakes:
kinetic energy is proportional to m*v*v. Mass stays the same, so the difference in energy lost through the brakes is a function of the square of the speed. 40 mph is 1.6 times faster than 25 mph, which means that coming to a stop from 40 mph wastes 1.6*1.6 = 2.56 times more energy than stopping from 25 mph.
A Fit is good for 50+ MPG at speeds of 40 - 45 mph, so the lion's share* of less than that in city driving is braking.
*Idling wastes ~ 5 - 10% in most city driving simulations. Needless to say, I miss engine off in my Fit. Europeans have it, so why not us ?
Last edited by Green Leaf; May 8, 2014 at 04:50 PM.
Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 207
From: Osaka
as for blanket MPG figures for a car its stupid, where and how its driven make massive differences so saying any one particular test is good/bad is a little short sighted. It really comes down to which test most closely matches your typical driving scenario and for each person thats different.
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Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 40
From: Pa
First, if you're getting over 30 mpg pn your HHR, hang on to it for dear life. The one here, now long gone barely got 20 mpg.
Second, please note that EPA mpg ratings are done on a computer with VERY carefully controlled speeds, acceleration, and times programs to get comparisons only. They do not represent accurate descriptions of how drivers drive. Almost no one gets EPA's mpg ratings in isolated city or highway mpg without clean traffic, downhill, andtailwinds or being mobile traffic pylons like some Prius.
Check the city mpg ratings to get more realistic comparisons of mpg that are achieved in the real world.
If your driving gets 30 mpg in your HHR then you should count on at least actual 36 mpg in a Fit.
Second, please note that EPA mpg ratings are done on a computer with VERY carefully controlled speeds, acceleration, and times programs to get comparisons only. They do not represent accurate descriptions of how drivers drive. Almost no one gets EPA's mpg ratings in isolated city or highway mpg without clean traffic, downhill, andtailwinds or being mobile traffic pylons like some Prius.
Check the city mpg ratings to get more realistic comparisons of mpg that are achieved in the real world.
If your driving gets 30 mpg in your HHR then you should count on at least actual 36 mpg in a Fit.
Member
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 39
From: Albuquerque, NM
Do you have the new hybrid ?
I'd like to know how fast the car can coast (foot off pedal) and not have the ICE spin. In Prius lingo, what is the maximum glide speed ?
I'd like to know how fast the car can coast (foot off pedal) and not have the ICE spin. In Prius lingo, what is the maximum glide speed ?
Last edited by Green Leaf; May 8, 2014 at 08:27 PM.
Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 427
From: Kihei, Maui, Hawaii
I also find that idle stop is undesirable as it stops the A/C and I quickly feel uncomfortable in just 30 seconds or so with the sun shining and the A/C off.
It also is amazing how most people do not understand EPA fuel economy figures, how they are derived and how the are generally not very representative of the great diversity of driving styles. For me, I have never had a single fill up in any of the 5 Hondas that I have owned that did not exceed the combined EPA fuel economy estimates. And I am far from a hypermilerer. By contrast I rarely exceeded EPA estimates while driving my former Ford, MiNi Coopers or BMWs. Checking the real world fuel economy figures posted on Fuelly.com is far more representative of the ranges that can be expected, than EPA estimates.
Member
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 39
From: Albuquerque, NM
It used to be 50:50 (prior to 2008) but that was fixed.
Drivers who stay below the speed limit on the highway and coast to red lights and turns end up with fuel economy figures pretty close to EPA CAFE. That would be 40 mpg for the Fit.
Last edited by Green Leaf; May 8, 2014 at 08:46 PM.
Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 427
From: Kihei, Maui, Hawaii
I thought is was just a flat across the board adjustment applied to all reported figures. Because my point is that Hondas will generally exceed the numbers reported to the EPA by Honda. Where very few, will exceed the numbers reported by Hyundai and Ford, both of whom grossly inflate the estimates they report to the EPA for publication.
Member
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 39
From: Albuquerque, NM
I was aware of the fudge factor change in 2008, but, are you implying the fudge factor is based on some kind of actual fuel economy obtained by real world drivers?
I thought is was just a flat across the board adjustment applied to all reported figures. Because my point is that Hondas will generally exceed the numbers reported to the EPA by Honda. Where very few, will exceed the numbers reported by Hyundai and Ford, both of whom grossly inflate the estimates they report to the EPA for publication.
I thought is was just a flat across the board adjustment applied to all reported figures. Because my point is that Hondas will generally exceed the numbers reported to the EPA by Honda. Where very few, will exceed the numbers reported by Hyundai and Ford, both of whom grossly inflate the estimates they report to the EPA for publication.
You are wrong about Ford and Hyundai. Hyundai committed fraud and was caught; Ford took advantage of loopholes in the EPA rules that let them test the best performer they had and then apply that figure to other models that the EPA considers similar enough.
This is why Hyundai was fined by the EPA and Ford was not. I read recently that the EPA is now working on closing the loopholes that Ford was using; and I know that Ford recently "voluntarily" submitted lower values for the C-max -- that car's test data, rather than the Ford Fusion data they had been using.
You are right that overall, Honda and Toyota do better in reaching and beating EPA than other car companies but the reasons are obscure. Perhaps some companies game EPA for higher results that are not seen on the roads, but it is damned near impossible to have similar driver populations so it remains speculation. If you hear about a car that has gear spacing that people in large numbers hate, you might suspect the motivation was EPA gaming. The so-called mild hybrids that GM sold come to mind.
Last edited by Green Leaf; May 8, 2014 at 09:55 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 207
From: Osaka
I have an RS which is not hybrid and CVT, same engine/transmission you guys get.
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 850
From: The 603
Mine isn't a hybrid, but it's got bad aero and doesn't weigh much so gliding depends on speed, slope and other traffic (draft). Thinking about electric-only, it's going to be the same thing: a big it depends.
Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,371
From: NC USA
If you mean how slowly the vehicle will lose speed with the foot completely off the throttle its not a number. The loss of speed depends on the aero dag, most about 0.32, the weather and air ptressure, whether true neutral is engaged or is the system using the coast to regenerate the battery, the road, the tires, the weight, etc, etc, etc. my hybrid doesn't coast nearly as well as my CRX but them\n my CRX didn't get 48 mpg. But it will coast down from 100 mph on track pretty quickly.
Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,371
From: NC USA
The fudge factor is applied across the board. The intent is as I posted above, but it is through stats rather than current driver data. IIRC the driver distribution is assumed to be normal (gaussian), and the BIG EPA is a z-score of 1.0.
You are wrong about Ford and Hyundai. Hyundai committed fraud and was caught; Ford took advantage of loopholes in the EPA rules that let them test the best performer they had and then apply that figure to other models that the EPA considers similar enough.
This is why Hyundai was fined by the EPA and Ford was not. I read recently that the EPA is now working on closing the loopholes that Ford was using; and I know that Ford recently "voluntarily" submitted lower values for the C-max -- that car's test data, rather than the Ford Fusion data they had been using.
as for why Toyota and Honda ow=ners get the best mpg in the ranges quoted for vehicles its because they do less You are right that overall, Honda and Toyota do better in reaching and beating EPA than other car companies but the reasons are obscure. Perhaps some companies game EPA for higher results that are not seen on the roads, but it is damned near impossible to have similar driver populations so it remains speculation. If you hear about a car that has gear spacing that people in large numbers hate, you might suspect the motivation was EPA gaming. The so-called mild hybrids that GM sold come to mind.
You are wrong about Ford and Hyundai. Hyundai committed fraud and was caught; Ford took advantage of loopholes in the EPA rules that let them test the best performer they had and then apply that figure to other models that the EPA considers similar enough.
This is why Hyundai was fined by the EPA and Ford was not. I read recently that the EPA is now working on closing the loopholes that Ford was using; and I know that Ford recently "voluntarily" submitted lower values for the C-max -- that car's test data, rather than the Ford Fusion data they had been using.
as for why Toyota and Honda ow=ners get the best mpg in the ranges quoted for vehicles its because they do less You are right that overall, Honda and Toyota do better in reaching and beating EPA than other car companies but the reasons are obscure. Perhaps some companies game EPA for higher results that are not seen on the roads, but it is damned near impossible to have similar driver populations so it remains speculation. If you hear about a car that has gear spacing that people in large numbers hate, you might suspect the motivation was EPA gaming. The so-called mild hybrids that GM sold come to mind.
as for why Toyota and Honda get mpg in the EPA ranges they do less 'optimization' than others. Hyundai just misrepressented the numbers and Ford 'optimized.Those mpg numbers especially the highway ones that fill advertisements are extremely important to buyers, most of whom don't have a clue. try getting in your next sales contract that your car will get EPA mpg numbers. That sales group just might throw the keys to your trade-in on the roof.
Any bur thats not aware their driving will net pretty close to the city mpg regardless of the vehicle ads.
Last edited by mahout; May 9, 2014 at 01:39 PM.
Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 323
From: Denver, CO
I know EPA numbers are not always "correct" but I converted the JC08 to EPA just so anyone who was curious could take a look. Then from there, what you know about Honda and your own driving style will give you a good idea.
The JC08 seems incredibly overstated and even if you average every single driver's mpg in a Fit hybrid the average would not be ~85 mpg. If the FF member who mentioned they average 53 mpg or so is getting that kind of rate, then there would need to be someone else getting ~117 mpg to average it out.... 85 mpg sounds like the best they got in a very specific test and not a relevant number for a driver using a vehicle in normal life.
The JC08 seems incredibly overstated and even if you average every single driver's mpg in a Fit hybrid the average would not be ~85 mpg. If the FF member who mentioned they average 53 mpg or so is getting that kind of rate, then there would need to be someone else getting ~117 mpg to average it out.... 85 mpg sounds like the best they got in a very specific test and not a relevant number for a driver using a vehicle in normal life.
Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 210
From: USA
I, like yourself was disappointed with the 2nd gen gas mileage, but I purchased a 2009 anyway. I was pleasantly surprised that I regularly get over 40mpg (almost all highway driving). Idk why it is rated as low as it is.
Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,371
From: NC USA
I know EPA numbers are not always "correct" but I converted the JC08 to EPA just so anyone who was curious could take a look. Then from there, what you know about Honda and your own driving style will give you a good idea.
The JC08 seems incredibly overstated and even if you average every single driver's mpg in a Fit hybrid the average would not be ~85 mpg. If the FF member who mentioned they average 53 mpg or so is getting that kind of rate, then there would need to be someone else getting ~117 mpg to average it out.... 85 mpg sounds like the best they got in a very specific test and not a relevant number for a driver using a vehicle in normal life.
The JC08 seems incredibly overstated and even if you average every single driver's mpg in a Fit hybrid the average would not be ~85 mpg. If the FF member who mentioned they average 53 mpg or so is getting that kind of rate, then there would need to be someone else getting ~117 mpg to average it out.... 85 mpg sounds like the best they got in a very specific test and not a relevant number for a driver using a vehicle in normal life.
For the thousandth time, the EPA mpg test is a programmed scale of rpm, loads, speeds, acceleration and braking sequences applied to a vehicle strapped to a dynomometer. IT IS NOT INTENDED TO PREDICT THE MPG OF THE AVERAGE DRIVER; IT IS ONLY TO PERMIT AN ACCURATE COMPARISON OF MPG BETWEEN TWO VEHICLES. Any driver that beats the EPA published numbers just drives easier than the program. Its not designed to minic the real world because its underlying purpose is to present the best possible mpg to comvince a buyer to buy the car, Why else would you see highway mileage touted by ads?
STOP complaining about the EPA test not being real? Its not supposed to be.
Its only a comparison of the most favorable attribute of its economical use of gas. Like most ads its full of inaccuracies. Its just that the inaccuracies are the same for each vehicle tested.
Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 207
From: Osaka
For the thousandth time, the EPA mpg test is a programmed scale of rpm, loads, speeds, acceleration and braking sequences applied to a vehicle strapped to a dynomometer. IT IS NOT INTENDED TO PREDICT THE MPG OF THE AVERAGE DRIVER; IT IS ONLY TO PERMIT AN ACCURATE COMPARISON OF MPG BETWEEN TWO VEHICLES. Any driver that beats the EPA published numbers just drives easier than the program. Its not designed to minic the real world because its underlying purpose is to present the best possible mpg to comvince a buyer to buy the car, Why else would you see highway mileage touted by ads?
STOP complaining about the EPA test not being real? Its not supposed to be.
Its only a comparison of the most favorable attribute of its economical use of gas. Like most ads its full of inaccuracies. Its just that the inaccuracies are the same for each vehicle tested.
STOP complaining about the EPA test not being real? Its not supposed to be.
Its only a comparison of the most favorable attribute of its economical use of gas. Like most ads its full of inaccuracies. Its just that the inaccuracies are the same for each vehicle tested.
exactly!!! should I be screaming murder cause my economy figures are crappy in my fit?? it does daily bumper to bumper, start/stop with a max speed of 50kph, and doesnt match test figures which are a completely different set of conditions? LOL
Member
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 74
From: Toronto
I know some people have already owned small cars like this with good mpg but for someone like me, I'll be coming from a 335i, so the gas mpg is amazing!
I have the new accord sport and was shocked on how it was so fuel efficient. I can only imagine the new fit
I have the new accord sport and was shocked on how it was so fuel efficient. I can only imagine the new fit
Member
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 323
From: Denver, CO
For the thousandth time, the EPA mpg test is a programmed scale of rpm, loads, speeds, acceleration and braking sequences applied to a vehicle strapped to a dynomometer. IT IS NOT INTENDED TO PREDICT THE MPG OF THE AVERAGE DRIVER; IT IS ONLY TO PERMIT AN ACCURATE COMPARISON OF MPG BETWEEN TWO VEHICLES.
Also your assessment of EPA allowing accurate comparison between 2 vehicles is wrong. Ford got in trouble for rating one of their hybrids which had never been tested, they just used figures from testing another hybrid with a completely different body style. So nothing accurate about that number and did not allow for accurate comparison. Even after they adjusted the numbers it still is not the same as numbers Toyota or another make would use. So you can't use EPA numbers to "accurately compare" between vehicles of different makes.
Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,371
From: NC USA
I've seen drivers try to match the programmed driving profile while looking at the profile and fail miserably to match the EPA number. Its a comparison, not how you will get. Simple as that. how you drive has no comparison to the programmed dring cycles.
Someone that spends his life on FitFreak.net
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,116
From: Hawaii: relocated to Western Canada Sept, 2015
Imagine how happy you would have been if you got that 2010 GE!!! The gas mileage would have been one area, but the other would be a much less depreciation rate on the Fit as opposed to GM's and, even Mazda's, for that matter. Check out the KBB.
As others have repeatedly pointed out, Honda's published mpg's are more conservative than most (GM and Mazda).
Its a no brainer if a new car is the budget concern. Get the GK and show us how to get 55mpg!!!
Now if your going used, them car lots await your visit!!!!
Last edited by ROTTBOY; May 10, 2014 at 08:59 PM.