How much BOOST can it take?
No it's not that bad. I'm running more rich than you on idle, but I will need to lower it because thats just wasting gas. It shouldn't hurt you so much on low rpms. And my guess, he didn't load the map.
Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 548
From: Flint, MI
That's definitely wrong. 12:1 at idle is BAD. My car did that before I tuned it, and it just leached fuel into the oil. That means it was washing down the piston rings, and thinning / diluting the oil.
I found it was IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE THE CAR IDLE AT THE CORRECT AFR unless the injector harness was used. The airflow adjustment map has little to no effect on idle fueling.
Is your e-manage injector harness connected? Are they using the I/J map, or the airflow adjustment map?
Don't buy that f-con, you'll have to go back to the same shop to get a tune -- HKS locked software FTL.
Is this the same shop that did your 6 psi tune?
Again, a 12:1 AFR at idle IS VERY VERY BAD. Washing down piston rings is very easy at idle, as there is very little airflow in the cylinder to keep the fuel in suspension. I'd be willing to bet your oil smells really strongly of gasoline now, mine did.
I found it was IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE THE CAR IDLE AT THE CORRECT AFR unless the injector harness was used. The airflow adjustment map has little to no effect on idle fueling.
Is your e-manage injector harness connected? Are they using the I/J map, or the airflow adjustment map?
Don't buy that f-con, you'll have to go back to the same shop to get a tune -- HKS locked software FTL.
Is this the same shop that did your 6 psi tune?
Again, a 12:1 AFR at idle IS VERY VERY BAD. Washing down piston rings is very easy at idle, as there is very little airflow in the cylinder to keep the fuel in suspension. I'd be willing to bet your oil smells really strongly of gasoline now, mine did.
Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 548
From: Flint, MI
Yeefit, I've got a map that I tuned (with artieman's help) is mapped up to 8 psi. If you've got the support tool installed on your computer, you can take a look at my map to see if it looks similar to what your tuner gave you.
Let me know and I'll shoot you an email with it attached..
EDIT
Or, you could email me your map from your tuner and I can compare it to mine.. My car boost spikes to 7.25 lately in sub-freezing mornings (WG actuated from manifold pressure, so it's a little higher), and I've never broken 12.7 AFR in boost. Idle AFRs are dead on...
Let me know and I'll shoot you an email with it attached..
EDIT
Or, you could email me your map from your tuner and I can compare it to mine.. My car boost spikes to 7.25 lately in sub-freezing mornings (WG actuated from manifold pressure, so it's a little higher), and I've never broken 12.7 AFR in boost. Idle AFRs are dead on...
Last edited by explosivpotato; Nov 13, 2008 at 09:13 PM.
Fawk Me... Well my dyno tuning day was a disaster...
I baselined and ran my car today. The dynojet said my car hit 5.7psi of boost. I put down 170.40hp/167.86ft lb to the wheels. 12.9AFR.
I didn't get a chance to increase the boost to my desired levels because the tuning shop I was at was having troubles tuning the emanage. For some reason my car was idling at 12.0AFR... much too rich. Each time they tried to lean it out at idle, it would go up to about 15.5AFR for about 30 seconds and then it would drop back down to 12.0AFR. They said the stock ECU was trying to take over and block out the emanage.
I didn't really understand this.. but all i know is that $400 later I still don't have my car properly tuned and boosting the level that I want to.
The place I went to is an HKS Pro Dealer. But they also sell GReddy there as well. They came to a conclusion that the only way to properly get the car tuned and running good is to take out my emanage ultimate and install an Fcon.
I wasn't watching what he was doing while he was tuning it on my laptop, but could it be something as simple as having to actually load in the adjustments to the emanage, vs. just changing the number and expecting it to load itself??
I dunno.. I wasn't too happy.. the numbers were good considering the boost I was actually putting out, but the rest of it was very frustrating.
Is 12.0AFR at idle that bad? Will I damage something?
Can someone else with the T1R kit please chime in and let me know what your experience is with your AFRs? And what can be done to change the AFRs at idle and keep it there? The last thing I want to do it have to spend another grand on the Fcon and harness...
I baselined and ran my car today. The dynojet said my car hit 5.7psi of boost. I put down 170.40hp/167.86ft lb to the wheels. 12.9AFR.
I didn't get a chance to increase the boost to my desired levels because the tuning shop I was at was having troubles tuning the emanage. For some reason my car was idling at 12.0AFR... much too rich. Each time they tried to lean it out at idle, it would go up to about 15.5AFR for about 30 seconds and then it would drop back down to 12.0AFR. They said the stock ECU was trying to take over and block out the emanage.
I didn't really understand this.. but all i know is that $400 later I still don't have my car properly tuned and boosting the level that I want to.
The place I went to is an HKS Pro Dealer. But they also sell GReddy there as well. They came to a conclusion that the only way to properly get the car tuned and running good is to take out my emanage ultimate and install an Fcon.
I wasn't watching what he was doing while he was tuning it on my laptop, but could it be something as simple as having to actually load in the adjustments to the emanage, vs. just changing the number and expecting it to load itself??
I dunno.. I wasn't too happy.. the numbers were good considering the boost I was actually putting out, but the rest of it was very frustrating.
Is 12.0AFR at idle that bad? Will I damage something?
Can someone else with the T1R kit please chime in and let me know what your experience is with your AFRs? And what can be done to change the AFRs at idle and keep it there? The last thing I want to do it have to spend another grand on the Fcon and harness...
first off i knew emaneg had some learning problems and the stock honda comp is very strong
second i wana see a dyno sheet thats crazy all that power on 6lbs
third 13 AFR is prety lean id like to see what the EGT temp is, be careful ....
forth congrats
Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 548
From: Flint, MI
The stock honda computer is very strong... but mine is very strong aiming for 14.7, NOT 12:1. At no point does the honda computer want 12:1 afrs, especially not idle. Something's up there. They should be tuning you with the I/J map, NOT the airflow adjustment map. You can't tune the idle with the airflow adjustments, my car totally ignored the airflow map at idle.
my tuner said the voltage on the map sensor would spike when in boost and it wouldnt let them add fuel after a certain rpm. so they used a voltage regulator/restrictor on it and it worked out okay for me. safe afr ftw! although, my car has been running a little rich since i put my s2k muffler on.
Yeefit, I've got a map that I tuned (with artieman's help) is mapped up to 8 psi. If you've got the support tool installed on your computer, you can take a look at my map to see if it looks similar to what your tuner gave you.
Let me know and I'll shoot you an email with it attached..
EDIT
Or, you could email me your map from your tuner and I can compare it to mine.. My car boost spikes to 7.25 lately in sub-freezing mornings (WG actuated from manifold pressure, so it's a little higher), and I've never broken 12.7 AFR in boost. Idle AFRs are dead on...
Let me know and I'll shoot you an email with it attached..
EDIT
Or, you could email me your map from your tuner and I can compare it to mine.. My car boost spikes to 7.25 lately in sub-freezing mornings (WG actuated from manifold pressure, so it's a little higher), and I've never broken 12.7 AFR in boost. Idle AFRs are dead on...
I don't think my injector harness is connected. Was that part of the normal installation (part of the manual)? Is that something that is needed to be connected for them to properly tune my car? Perhaps that was the problem?
These guys aren't the ones who dyno'd my car the first time... he's also able to unlock the HKS F-Con IS and fully program it for my car.
He speaker phoned the lead engineer for the HKS turbo kit for the Fit. We chatted for a while, and he actually said that the 12AFR isn't that bad... he would be concerned if it was 9-10AFR.
But even so, I'd like to get this solved. I think a 15.5AFR at idle is what is desired and I am no where near that right now.
I'll email them for a soft copy of my dyno graphs.. We were so caught up with being so flustered with the low AFR at idle issue and not being able to correct it we really just gave up. I didn't feel like we made any progress today besides making my peak boost AFR a little safer. Plus I plan on going back there once I figure out wtf is going on with my emanage, and whether or not I need to go with the F-con IS, maybe even the V-Pro.
Last edited by YeeFit; Nov 14, 2008 at 01:30 AM.
Big thanks to explosivpotato for all his help... i sorted out my problem and am gonna get a wideband tomorrow and get my car running better than ever.
Hopefully I'll have another update soon...
Hopefully I'll have another update soon...
Find another tuner and don't look back!
Any ideas on a fuel pump? There has got to be another Honda pump that will work. Civic SI supplies for a K series I wonder if that would work.
Any ideas?
Any ideas on a fuel pump? There has got to be another Honda pump that will work. Civic SI supplies for a K series I wonder if that would work.
Any ideas?
Last edited by Nabisco; Nov 14, 2008 at 11:58 AM.
The stock honda computer is very strong... but mine is very strong aiming for 14.7, NOT 12:1. At no point does the honda computer want 12:1 afrs, especially not idle. Something's up there. They should be tuning you with the I/J map, NOT the airflow adjustment map. You can't tune the idle with the airflow adjustments, my car totally ignored the airflow map at idle.
I read that the emanage can accept a wideband afr sensor and auto tune itself.. have you tried this?
I'm not sure which one is best to get, but it would be cool to set a target AFR on the emanage and let the unit take care of the rest..
As an electronics design engineer and algorithm coder nut, I have wondered why the above strategy isn't strictly employed. If it can monitor throttle, air, temp, AFR, and control timing and fuel... seems like it should be able to sort everything else out automatically after a few runs (ie, rev up slowly in nuetral, and then a run down the street in 1st gear slowly, then medium, and finally WOT.) That would be enough to get things in range, and then it could fine tune over time.
Don't forget the AJ-R Fit made 165whp/162tq at 6psi on a dynojet. My car made 156whp on a mustang dyno previously, and like I said in some other posts a mustang dyno shows about a 8-10% decrease in power vs. a dynojet. So really I didn't make any more power than before, just that I was on a dynojet this time around. Also, today it was cold out.. close to freezing temps... I think that makes a difference in the numbers too. Oh, and 1 last thing that can be a factor in whp.. my enkei rpf-1 15" wheels are super light... I weighed them in a 26lbs per corner including rubber.. that's 12lbs lighter than my oem alloys with winter rubber. PER WHEEL!
I'll email them for a soft copy of my dyno graphs.. We were so caught up with being so flustered with the low AFR at idle issue and not being able to correct it we really just gave up. I didn't feel like we made any progress today besides making my peak boost AFR a little safer. Plus I plan on going back there once I figure out wtf is going on with my emanage, and whether or not I need to go with the F-con IS, maybe even the V-Pro.
I'll email them for a soft copy of my dyno graphs.. We were so caught up with being so flustered with the low AFR at idle issue and not being able to correct it we really just gave up. I didn't feel like we made any progress today besides making my peak boost AFR a little safer. Plus I plan on going back there once I figure out wtf is going on with my emanage, and whether or not I need to go with the F-con IS, maybe even the V-Pro.
wow if u went V-pro id be so jealous lol this is the comps of all comps
Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 548
From: Flint, MI
Hey e.potato.. what wideband do you have? I looked around town and there is either a Innovate one or the AEM UEGO.
I read that the emanage can accept a wideband afr sensor and auto tune itself.. have you tried this?
I'm not sure which one is best to get, but it would be cool to set a target AFR on the emanage and let the unit take care of the rest..
I read that the emanage can accept a wideband afr sensor and auto tune itself.. have you tried this?
I'm not sure which one is best to get, but it would be cool to set a target AFR on the emanage and let the unit take care of the rest..
As for the self-tune, you certainly can go that route with a very big BUT...
Greddy (and experienced tuners) will tell you that the target setup on the E-manage is only to be used to get yourself a rough basemap, and that further manual tuning will be required.
In theory, Xorbe is correct. A self-learning ECU with target AFR values and a wideband sensor SHOULD be the perfect solution, but the processor(s) on the E-manage are not fast enough, and the algorithm not effective enough to make this a permanent solution. Generally what you get when you use the autotune feature is a rough (and rather very rich) basemap that you still need to smooth out manually.
Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 548
From: Flint, MI
PM'd!! Can you send me your map? I can compare it with mine...
I don't think my injector harness is connected. Was that part of the normal installation (part of the manual)? Is that something that is needed to be connected for them to properly tune my car? Perhaps that was the problem?
These guys aren't the ones who dyno'd my car the first time... he's also able to unlock the HKS F-Con IS and fully program it for my car.
He speaker phoned the lead engineer for the HKS turbo kit for the Fit. We chatted for a while, and he actually said that the 12AFR isn't that bad... he would be concerned if it was 9-10AFR.
But even so, I'd like to get this solved. I think a 15.5AFR at idle is what is desired and I am no where near that right now.
I don't think my injector harness is connected. Was that part of the normal installation (part of the manual)? Is that something that is needed to be connected for them to properly tune my car? Perhaps that was the problem?
These guys aren't the ones who dyno'd my car the first time... he's also able to unlock the HKS F-Con IS and fully program it for my car.
He speaker phoned the lead engineer for the HKS turbo kit for the Fit. We chatted for a while, and he actually said that the 12AFR isn't that bad... he would be concerned if it was 9-10AFR.
But even so, I'd like to get this solved. I think a 15.5AFR at idle is what is desired and I am no where near that right now.
The F-con is certainly a very powerful tuning computer to be sure, but it is expensive and you can't tune it yourself without getting it unlocked (I'm not sure about how this works, but it scared me off).
The Injector harness is wired in when you do the standard T1R install according to the instruction manual. The injector harness is the last diagram on the instructions.
I currently have an idle around 15.0. I know the computer is happy there as I can watch it oscillate around 14.3-15.5. The stock computer can only read a binary lean/rich condition, so it has to switch back and forth between the two to average a stoich mixture. When your tune is too far off, the computer can't get up to (or down to) the desired mixture, and so it sits wherever it is.
A 12:1 idle may not be the worst thing in the world, but I ran my car like that for only 1500 miles and my brand-new Mobil 1 oil had turned blacker than the midnight sky and reeked of gasoline. It also felt gritty. This was because the extra gas at idle was leaking down the sides of the cylinders (consequently taking the lubricating film of oil with it, which can cause advanced ring and cylinder liner wear), and diluted my oil. When the oil got hot, not all the gas evaporated off and some of it carbonized, creating the soot.